ICC Profiles?

[RyanSpaulding]

Hey guys,

 

Running into a snag on this profile thing. 1st off, we use an Epson 1800 in house for prints up to 13x19 and we've been trying to get nearly matching colors when we do our large format printing with a local print shop who has a large format Epson.

 

Well, the print shop sent me their ICC profile they use so we can give them the closest possible match and then they don't have to tweak so much. Problem is, I'm not sure what I'm targeting.

 

I apply the profile in Photoshop CS and it dramatically changes how it looks on my screen. There's a lot more yellow/green and it's a lot darker overall. If I simply hit 'print' from there, I get a print that is close to what we had with OUR color profile, but it saturated some yellows and greens. My question is, should I be trying to match our print (which the client already got using our profile) with the OUTPUT of the image using the print shop's profile...tweaking on screen to match the output?

 

It's my 1st time dealing with this issue. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Ernest Burden III]

the print shop sent me their ICC profile they use so we can give them the closest possible match and then they don't have to tweak so much.

 

Oh, the tub of oil.

 

First. Your monitor should be in fairly good shape. CRT? I hope so. The best setting is at 6500K NOT the 9300K that monitors are set by default. It's way blue. In truth you're supposed to go all the way to the warmest, which is 5300K. I can't take that, so I stick with 6500K. It closely matches the look of paper. Get the monitor maker's profile, get the temp. set right. Theres a little app from Adobe with Photoshop to help get brightness set right. Best to use a monitor profiling device, but for not the above will do fine.

 

Second--the print shop's profile is only meant for soft-proofing on screen, it's otherwise a wild goose, so don't chase it. It is meant for printed output time and matches the printer driver to PS. If your file is a good scan you should be good with PS set to use the MonitorRGB profile that Photoshop creates. I'll have to ponder how that's done, I forget at the moment. My point is that their profile isn't much of a guide for you.

 

Scanning should be done without any profile to avoid multiple biasing of your data. But if you're going from a digital rendering then let's assume its rendered properly and has a good color balance, circle back to having the monitor set up reasonably well.

 

There is no such thing as a perfect match from a monitor to a print--they are different as can be. One is transmissive in RGB, the other reflective in CMYK. I have, however, been able to scan a painted rendering and print a test patch that is a pretty perfect match when layed back over the rendering. It can be good, but monitors and prints are different, judge each on its own.

 

When printing out of photoshop you load your printer profile in as a custom proof ("view" pulldown) the profile .icc or .icm goes in the top slot, then turn OFF preserve color numbers and set the last field to relative colorimetric. Some people like perceptual for that last one, either will do pretty well. Whether you have blackpoint comensator on or off is a matter of experiment. I tend to have it on. It attempts to pull darks towards a black on the screen, and also tweeks them for printing. You do not simulate paper white or ink black.

 

Those settings will make the display look different and there is no reason to work with it that way, its more for printing. If it looks really different it suggests that there is a problem somewhere, either the profile itself or the printer driver settings.

 

When you go to print you set the profile to your custom one (good to save it first) and select print with preview. make sure show more options is checked, color management. select the printer space to be 'proof' and you should see your .icc or .icm listed there. Then print space set to same as source.

 

No, you're not done yet.

 

Now, to keep the print driver from biasing you back to mush. You go into the print driver's panel (printer setup) and find the advanced options. I'm used to Epson drivers. There should be some choices for things like sRGB, VIVID, 'auto' maybe...find 'no color management' or OFF. That keeps the driver from trying to re-interpret the color.

 

Now print.

 

The idea here is to not have every device and software in the chain add its own bias, like a game of 'telephone'. You want only ONE device, in this case Photoshop, to bias the color using the profile created for the specific output printer/inkset

 

 

I think I wrote this all up previously, perhaps more cohesively. Good luck.

[RyanSpaulding]

Well that went completely over my head.

 

I'm looking for more conceptual info. Forget monitor calibration and all of that. Strictly the print side.

 

I mean, if we print using our ICC profile, we get what the client wants. It's too late to do proofs for them using the newer ICC profile the print shop sent. I attached 2 images...one with each profile assigned so you can see what I'm talking about with a major color change.

 

However, when I print the darker/more yellow one, the print barely changes. It does definitely change, but it's more subtle. I'm trying to figure out is this ICC profile simulating THEIR output on OUR printer? Such as, even tho the monitor is way different (probably because I dont have it set up correctly), the print using their profile on my printer should be close to what they would output with their printer...

 

So if say the EFIS is a bit more yellow using their profile, I should pull some yellow out of our file and adjust it until the print with their profile matches ours...then once tha adjustments are made, save it, and send it off to them...giving them a much more accurate version for their use?

 

I'm so dumb with printer shit. These 14 hour days aren't helping either

[RyanSpaulding]

the images

[Ernest Burden III]

Forget monitor calibration and all of that. Strictly the print side.

 

How will you judge a print of a digital rendering if you have no idea if your monitor is reasonably calibrated?

 

 

I'm so dumb with printer shit.

 

I'm sorry I spent the time to write all that, then. I was trying to educate you.

 

 

the print using their profile on my printer should be close to what they would output with their printer...

 

No. Their profile is for their printer. Ignore it. Give them your file and a print you made that you like and say "it should look like this". You're done.

[Jeff Mottle]

Monitor/Printer calibration and setting up a fully calibrated workflow is not an easy thing to do and the concepts are not easy to grasp at first. First thing I would do it read this: http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/13893-monitor-printer-calibration.html I wrote these a few years back.

 

The second thing I will mention, and Ernest eluded to it, is that profiles and calibration are all tied together. It's all or nothing, you either do it all or you will end up in a worse situation than you are now. You need to profile all of your input devices, your output devices and set up a consistant color managed workflow. This means purchasing some equipment to calibrate your monitors and any other devices you want to use. Scanners, printers etc all need to be profiled.

 

This is a HUGE topic, but I think if I explain what a profile is you might have a better understanding of what you are trying to do.

 

Every device as you probably know spits out numbers behind the scenes when it inputs or outputs information, for example your printer, monitor, scanner etc. All of these devices essentially talk a different languange and to further complicate things even two identical devices although similar still are not the same numberically. You could equate it to a dialect of the same language. A profile is essentially a numberical description of the "language" that device talks. This description is stored in an ICC profile. Consider this ICC profile to be a universal language. With all of your devices profiled, it means that software (Photoshop) or windows and your video card, can all essentially speak the same language. When a printer sends you their ICC profile, you need to tell Photoshop to use this file in order to proof your image. Otherwise what you see on your screen is Greek and the printer you are sending to understands French.

 

Read through my documents and then post some questions. Bottom line, you can't just take the printers profile unless all of your equipment in that pipeline is set up to understand the "Universal" languange.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[RyanSpaulding]

I'm sorry I spent the time to write all that, then. I was trying to educate you.

 

No, I greeeeatly appreciate that. In fact, it's sitting on my desk printed ready to go through when i have time to do this more in depth. My only point was that I need more general info for the time being...I cant set up my monitor and run though tons of settings right now...I was more just trying to figure out what it is I'm matching and how this all works.

 

Your steps will be HUGELY important for the next project. As it is, I have an architect who is just being Mr. Demandy right now and a print shop that doesn't have time to do major color corrections...and I wasn't sent their profile until AFTER I did the prints for the client.

 

My apologies for sounding ungrateful. Stress is getting to me a bit these last 3 weeks. I have more work than I know what to do with.

 

Thanks again Ernest.

 

And thanks also Jeff. All this is helping me understand it a lot better.

[RyanSpaulding]

Well, I inally had time to dive into this because we recently purchased an Epson 7800 large format printer...however, I'm trying to calibrate and profile our monitors here, hopefully without $300 hardware...using Adobe Gamma and a color chart.

 

Problem is, our main workstations are laptops and you need to be able to adjust brightness/contrast and all that. Am I going to basically NEED a hardware profiler for this because they're laptops and lack contrast/brightness and all other tweaking controls?

[Jeff Mottle]

Well, I inally had time to dive into this because we recently purchased an Epson 7800 large format printer...however, I'm trying to calibrate and profile our monitors here, hopefully without $300 hardware...using Adobe Gamma and a color chart.

 

Problem is, our main workstations are laptops and you need to be able to adjust brightness/contrast and all that. Am I going to basically NEED a hardware profiler for this because they're laptops and lack contrast/brightness and all other tweaking controls?

 

Forget about Adobe Gamma, it's a useless waste of time and energy. If you want to calibrate then you need to purchase the equipment to do it. The new Spyder 2 devices are able to calibrate without advanced gun controls and are also able to calibrate laptops LCD screens, although a laptop display is not really a device I'd consider suitable for critical color evaluation. But calibrated is definetly better than not.

 

http://www.colorvision.com/profis/profis_view.jsp?id=602

[RyanSpaulding]

Cool. Thanks Jeff!