Dilemma

[womble]

I'm having a bit of a post-teens crisis at the moment, and thought this was maybe a good place to ask for some advice. For the record this isn't a hugely pressing decision for me to make (have to decide by February), but it is playing on my mind a bit.

 

I'm currently an Architecture student in 4th year at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, at the moment i'm doing my year long placement with an architecture practice (been here for 11 months, 1 month to go!), and have gained a bit of experience in 3D modelling. I know I'm not amazing and have a long way to go, but I think I'm actually moving away from architecture and into modelling.

 

The decision I have to make is whether or not to continue with architecture once I get my degree in May, if I want to become an architect, then I need to complete another 2 years at university (which are incredibly difficult two years, my flatmates girlfriend is doing that course at the moment and its a very stressful time), plus another year minimum as an RIBA Part 2 Placement Student, including another 10,000 word dissertation and exam.

 

Now at the moment I just don't know if I want to do all that work, and then go into a job that I'm just not sure i'd enjoy doing. I see all the architects at work here, and most of there day is spent doing minutes, or meetings, or poring over building regulations; I just don't think I'd enjoy doing that. I'm working for a very commercial firm at the moment, and can't say im in love with most of the stuff we produce, however I know that should I move to a firm that does produce work that I enjoy, I'd be working 12 hour days, and weekends without any overtime.

 

I think i'm also outgrowing university, 6 years just now seems far too long for me, I think I'd like to move on and start my career, get a mortgage, not have to worry about writing essays etc.

 

I'm really considering moving into more 3D work once I get my degree, what I like about visualisation is that I enjoy coming into the office and working away at the computer at it, seeing results going back and changing things. I dont think I could honestly say I'd enjoy coming in and doing the hard hours that an architect works, and doing the job that they do. I know that in future i'd maybe like to start my own visualisation office, or maybe move into film or advertising or something like that. Maybe even emigrate or spend a few years in another country.

 

The advice I've been given so far is to go and finish my extra 2 years, as it will be easier to do them now, and have the option of being an architect later in life if i wish to do that than going back to uni when im older. I just dont think I'll complete the two years now if I start them, and if I do complete them, that extra qualification isn't going to help me in any other field than becoming an architect.

 

Sorry for the really rambling post, just had my coffee and my brains a bit fried from writing a 5000 word essay. But I would really appreciate any advice from out there, seeing as I know a lot of you have experience in both fields!

[IC]

My best friend's dad is an Architect and I went to him for advice when I got a conditional acceptance at Glasgow. He asked me if architecture was the biggest interest in my life and I said no. His advice was that I wouldn't make it through the course so I should do something else.

Having known and worked with architects in the 15 years since then, I think it was the right advice.

 

It's not like you would be throwing the four years away as having the degree itself will open doors into jobs with viz firms so if that's where you want to go, you'll have the ideal qualification.

 

But, as you know, if you don't do it now you never will

[womble]

Well yeah, I consider the past 4 years really great experience, and think it would open doors to a lot of jobs just having a 1:1 or 2:1. I think I've just outgrown university, and don't wanna exhaust myself doing another 2 years of really hard work for a career I might want to continue doing at the end of it. Or spend 2 years starting on my career.

 

Out of interest, does anyone know what a basic entry salary for a 3d artist vs. Part 2 architect is? I know they would both really be based on experience and ability, but I'm guessing theyre both quite similar.

 

My main worry would be 'capping out' at a certain wage level as a 3d artist, where I might not be able to advance without starting my own company. But then I imagine this is likely to happen in architecture as well, where I'd be at a certain level until I hit partner or associate (if that ever happens!)

 

If its the choice between sitting a computer all day modelling and rendering, or sitting at the computer all day drafting, plus extra stres/hours/weekends, I'd have to choose modelling. Its something I think I could become really good at, whereas I have a feeling I'd be a mediocre architect.

[ZFact]

I did 4 years as a technologist back 5 years ago in sheffield

and have been working in an architectural practice in ireland

for the last 4 years... started as a technologist but as soon

as my visualization skills became more apparent to my employer

he soon realised i was worth more as a visualizer than i was as

a technologist... says alot for my technical ability I know....

 

but... i havnt looked back, I now produce renderings day in day out

and can honestly say its much more satisfying than producing

a curtain wall detail and paper pushing. There is a perceived

glamour about architecture and being an architect but in reality

its a tough job with high stress levels and unless your lucky enough

to become the next norman foster then I cant really see it changing

for anyone involved.

 

You could think of yourself as a design architect but thats just fooling

yourself as there is so much ancillary work which goes with it.

 

Different strokes for different folks i suppose... Iv tried both and much prefer

what I do now. I think you should run with what you enjoy doing today and not plan your future to much.... " Live each day as if its your last, because one day you'll be right".

[STRAT]

i've worked in an architects office for 15+ years too as a visualiser, and find the only architects who 'get their hands dirty', that is, draft, draw, design etc etc are technicians and junior architects.

 

all those who progress up the greesy poll do meetings, paper work, minutes, meetings, meetings, more paper work and a few more meetings. how exciting is that i ask you?

 

also, it's swings and roundabouts as far as earnings go - a trainee architect on the architect's career ladder will progress and get paid more than you, but you can earn infinately more in your spare freelancing time than a highly qualified architect would struggle to match.

 

i'm partly trained as an architect and gave it up after a few years, because cgi looked more fun. best choice i ever made imo.

[eksg]

Just remember this one dude "NO REGRETS"!!!

 

In whatever you choose, be contented on the results.

 

I wanted to be a movie director,but i ended up being a licenced architect, just for the wish of my father. I know that it would be a torture for me,but i choose on making my dad happy, and i dont have any regrets about it,BECAUSE ITS MY CHOICE. But by next year, I'd be enrolling on a cinematography school, just to fulfill my real dream.

 

So...in the end,it is you who would decide. And be man enough to stand on your decision.Okie!

 

Cheers everyone!

[womble]

Well, Dilemma... Continued!

 

I had a meeting with my current boss on friday regarding whether or not I'm going to do my Part 2:

 

He voiced concerns at me wanting to finish up my current degree (and end up with a MArts(Hons)), and be qualified to Part 1 level, and then hopefully take up a career in 3D Vis work. In short he thinks that there wont even be a 3D industry to speak of in 10 years time, and see's it as a career path that would top out quite suddenly, with not many options for advancement or promotion.

 

Now I can see where he's coming from, 15 years ago there was no 3D industry to speak of, now its got to the point where everyone (almost) is learning how to do it and the programmes are making it easier and easier. Where I disagree however is that I believe there will always be a position for people who can do the job well, and create attractive images/animations.

 

I'm a bit more concerned about pay/opportunities however. I've worked my ass off at uni for the past four years, and ideally I'd like to be 'financially comfertable' with the job I end up in. If theres no real capacity to advance in the industry it is a bit of a worry to me. Although, maybe its the case where I could start my own 3D firm or something in a number of years, and gain responsibility that way.

 

Ack, I just don't know anymore. I don't think I want to do Architecture anymore, as the realities of the profession just don't interest me; I don't think i'm particularly good at design so my boss's suggestion that I specialise in architectural design doesn't seem very wise to me; I can't actually afford another two years at university without being able to work part time (the course is mega-busy, 12 hour days 6 or 7 days a week in the studio, so no time for a job).

 

I guess the entire thing just depends on how good you are, but what do you think, are there opportunities for people who are very good? Or do opportunitys sort of flatten out once you reach a certain level?

[Vince Paske]

Regarding whether there will be a 3d industry in 10 years...this has been discussed quite a bit here in these forums, the general consensus has been yes there will be. Mostly because the "level" of 3d skills needed to produce rendering of the quality people expect to see take time to develope, time that architects and interns don't have because they have so many other responsibilities.

There has always been a need for Architectural Illustration, that won't stop with the new BIM tools everyone is starting to use.

I've worked in-house as a visualization specialist for (omg) 8 years. I've seen the work done by students coming into the work force with nice 3d work in their portfolio's, and it changes suddenly in the real-world when they have several other things to do. Sure, the ability is there, but the time to develope it isn't.

Also, I kind of like the fact that other people are creating the models, its really my least favorite part. It gives me more time to focus on materials, lights and producing animations. Thats where visualization experts separate themselves from the "I can do 3d too" crowd. Do work at a level they can't reach, be the artist - not just the technition.

A good analogy I like to use is that anyone can take pictures, but very few are photographers.

And getting back to the origin of your post - you can always go back to school after pursuing a career in visualization. Architecture, unless you are one of .1% hot-shot designers, can be a...well, not as glamorous as some people like to think, but you already know that

[IC]

There has always been a need for Architectural Illustration, that won't stop with the new BIM tools everyone is starting to use.

 

I don't think BIM tools pose any threat to the future of the visualisation artist. As you say modelling is the utilitarian part of what we do and it can be easily learned.

 

It's renderers like Maxwell and Fry that will give almost anyone the ability to produce beautiful images.

The flip side of that is that, quite possibly, photoreal images will become a throwaway thing and there will be a renewed interest in something a bit different.

[Brian Cassil]

In this forum here you are speaking to a lot of people that found themselves in a very similar situation as the crossroads you are at now. And obviously, we also represent the side that chose the path of CG Visualization. If this were a forum of mostly practicing architects, the advice you would get would be a little different.

 

I think the thing you should consider is where are your passions? A proffesional visualization artist is mostly working on other peoples designs. For me, I am quite content with that. I get to callaborate on the design, I love the day to day work, I rarely am involved with the mundane, and the personal rewards come whenever I know I've done a good job. However, for many architects there are great rewards in designing something that they can take "ownership" in and seeing it all the way through construction. Even if that means attending endless meetings, doing sensless paperwork, dealing with codes and regulations, and battling out through potential litigation.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Brian Cassil]

I'm a bit more concerned about pay/opportunities however. I've worked my ass off at uni for the past four years, and ideally I'd like to be 'financially comfertable' with the job I end up in.

 

Be carefull in thinking that any degree or education (the two are often mistakenly interchangable) gaurantee financial comfort. I know too many architects who are surprised that after school they still have to work their ass off. Risk is evident in any career and choosing the path with the least apparent risk will probably not lead to somehting you are happy with.

 

I've also known a few too many dentists and buisness managers who hate those jobs even though they make a decent enough living. My take is if you aren't passionate about your job, you won't be successfull at it.

[Sawyer]

I think the point about if you aren't highly motivated to finish you wont is a good one and probably one of the reasons why it is hard and stressful is to weed out the less motivated students. Would you use the degree? Yes. Anywhere you go a higher education level will put you in a higher pay bracket. Especially at larger firms with a strick pay structure. My wife makes more than her co-worker who has worked there for many years longer just because she has a post grad degree. 2 years is not a long time.

 

Is architecture as an industry pretty crap? Yup. I think most architects I know would have thought about things differenty if they would have know then what they do now. That said there are many great firms in the world where good work is done and its enjoyable. Many small places will give you a larger range of work than a big one and I think if you are patient and really look for a good place to work you will find it. And a higher degree will open more doors. Worst case you get beat out for a great job by someone with a higher degree. And in 10 years if your employer asks you why you didn't get a higher degree will you want to say because it was too hard?

[Vince Paske]

I think the point about if you aren't highly motivated to finish you wont is a good one and probably one of the reasons why it is hard and stressful is to weed out the less motivated students. Would you use the degree? Yes. Anywhere you go a higher education level will put you in a higher pay bracket. Especially at larger firms with a strick pay structure.

 

Yeah, that is a good point. I have a M-ARCH and that has opened doors and has led to more of a design and visualization role with a pretty decent pay - much better than if you look at the "average wages for a local architect with x amount of experience in your location". The downside is that every once in a while an architect will say "you should get your license". No way, I'm having way too much fun is my usual reply.

 

All I can say is, if another 2 years of school sounds miserable, you probably shouldn't do it. You'll get halfway through the first semester and hate life. I was looking forward to grad school after being a bum on the west coast for half a year, and staying motivated was still a challenge. But it was in grad school that my best friend and I thought (after taking a 3d-Studio, for DOS!) that it wold be pretty cool to be able to make a living doing "virtual architecture". Hehe, dreams can come true!

 

Like I said before, its no crime to take a break, figure some stuff out - have some fun in your 20's, and if you think another 2 years of school and becoming an architect is for you, dive into with all you got and be that. I know architects that are very happy with their careers and couldn't see themselves doing anything else. Its up to you, no one can make your mind up for you.

[womble]

Thanks guys, really appreciate all of the advice :-) I just read over my original posts and realised my grammer is terrible!

 

Can I ask a question, just so I can see if the degree levels are the same in the states as they are over here?

 

What I'll end up with next summer is either a 2:1 or 1:1(fingers crossed!) Master of Arts with Honours, which has been a 4 year course. The optional degree is a 2 year Master of Architecture with Honours. 6 years total. Is that roughly how it works in the States?

 

I can understand higher pay and more opportunities with one degree, I guess I'm just not convinced that the 2nd degree will make a lot of difference to a lot of places. What I'm hoping really is that 2 years of professional experience and hopefully a good portfolio (as well as my 4 year degree) will put me in a good position. But I do understand that any further qualifications could probably open more doors for me.

 

I do really appreciate all the advice everyone, and it was sort of a conscious decision to ask advice here (as a predominatly CG forum) as I get a lot of advice from the architects at work, so the other perspective is really helpful :-)

[joseph alexander]

US: five year bachelors of architecture then 5600 hours working in an office fulfilling particular goals (IDP) then 6 months of testing (depending) to get licenced.

 

or

3 year (or 2.5 year accelerated masters of architecture course study over summer) 5600 hours working in office fulfilling particular goals (IDP) then 6 months of testing (depending) to get licenced.

 

or

 

five year bachelors of architecture course then 2.5 years masters course then (i believe) you can get a significant number of hours waived for your IDP, like 1500 hours, then 6 months of testing (depending) to get licenced.

 

 

-Joe

[1eo]

are you giving up with 2 more years to go? Unless you're about to retire and buy an RV, I wouldn't do it.

 

Once you become an architect, you can still work as a 3d artist. However, you can't do the opposite.

 

I have a friend that wanted to be a wrestler, yet he made sure he got his backup plan covered first (he got his Bachelors in architecture + a masters).

 

Just think how hard is going to be to finish those two years in the future if you give up now....

 

btw, have you ever work for somebody as 3d modeler? not as fun as doing your own stuff.

 

I think you should ask around and find a better firm. Maybe it could make the whole difference.

[joseph alexander]

Look, all the people who are saying leave school already have degrees and started when rendering was in high demand. If you eventually want to freelance, it's going to be a lot harder for you then it was for them. My guess is that your first 4 years will be working at an office getting good.

 

and, quite Frankly, if I'm an employer and I’m looking at your resume the first thing I'll notice is that you don't have a degree and I'll think to myself, "I bet I can offer this guy a lower salary".

 

Also look at more challenging offices. Ask for an 'informal interview' and look around. It sound like the office you're interning at now is a 9-5 place. That's cool if you have kids etc, but if you're young you want the excitement and experience it's not really where you want to be.

 

You should ask people on this board what offices they think are doing good work and could use junior people, call them up and check them out.

 

good luck,

-joe

[womble]

Well I'll have a degree, a Master of Arts with Honours at the Univesity of Edinburgh, one of the best schools in Scotland. Its the periphery 2 year extra degree that is only going to be useful if I want to be an architect, which at this point... I really don't think I want to be.

 

I'm not that great at design, I get quite good marks at Uni because I do well at selling whatever design I might have, but in the real world I really don't think I have the confidence to design real buildings and then build them. I have worked for a firm for 12 months now as their Part 1 student, stated of doing mainly photoshop and CAD work, but stated teaching myself modelling during lunchtimes and things and eventually they started giving me 3D projects, I've completed 3 proper jobs there, so I've gained an idea about workflows for these companies and enjoyed it a lot better than what I see the achitects doing!

 

I'm not really quitting anything, as at the end of summer I'll graduate with a degree the same as everyone else in the university, its just now I'm pretty sure I don't want to spend a further 2 years at university (and I also can't afford it) to earn a further degree that in my opinion will be very limited in usefulness for any job other than architect.

 

Think I just want an easy life from now on really Doing something I enjoy. My mum is pregnant and so I have a new little brother or sister on the way at around about the same time as I graduate. So I'm really looking forward to spending lots of time with them and family, as well as my girlfriend rather than sitting in the university studio until 2am each night stressing out!

 

I really hope this post doesn't sound defensive guys, I appreciate all the advice, and now realise that what while Im asking advice, im trying to convince myself of the right path to take. I don't think I want to be an architect; 2 more years at uni, 2 more years work experience and essays/exams, long hours, a lot of boring work, just not something I'm very good at. I know its not all roses in the world of Viz, but if it means a much more chilled out life, of doing something I actually enjoy and gain pleasure from then I think my mind is made up.

 

Thanks guys!

[e-YELLOWCABS.COM]

The force, my friend, don't go to the dark side of the force !

You can make money now, better lifestyle than a student , that's sure...

 

3D is not a job, it's far from being a qualification. To live with 3D , you need an expertise before, architect is this expertise.

And you know what, one day you'll be fed up with CG viz, perhaps...

What will remain: you as an architect, it's like riding a bike, we never forget !

 

pierre

a french architect... doing 3d work 24hrs a day...