ethics in the industry?

[harryhood]

As far as the 3d side of the arch viz industry, or any 3d work is concerned, what are some ethical dilemmas one might run into? I ask because I'm taking an ethics course and we must present an ethical dilemma regarding our program of study (mine being 3d modeling/viz) then go through different approaches and solutions. So has anyone here had an ethical conflict, or know of any I may come across once I'm out there working? Any input is welcome, thanks.

[Bwana Kahawa]

There's a program advertised for TV tonight about a new planned animal testing laboratory. Got me thinking - if you were part of the architectural team designing the place, might you encounter some hostile reactions from animal rights groups?

 

Those huge dams you hear about that'll flood dozens of villages once they're complete, would be another example.

 

So, an ethical issue that could be encountered could be whether or not to work on controversial buildings?

 

Just a thought!

[Ernest Burden III]

I was once approached by a developer who's owner was a convicted tax cheat and was (still is) known as the Queen of Mean in New York. Would I take money from a nasty, vile, abusive felon? I wouldn't have had to work with her directly, but there was no way I was taking the commission. My only regret is that I knew the rep who called me would not tell his boss why I declined.

 

Other things come up, from time to time, like:

 

being asked to re-do a rendering that someone else did. The question pops to mind "was that person paid for their work?"

 

being asked to modify someone else's work

 

being asked to render competition entries by competing firms

 

having a regular client pump you for info about another designer they know you work for

 

having employees of firms you work for offer their dirty laundry with their boss (your client) and expect you to take their side

 

being asked to submit a lie (faked renderings) to a planning board without saying where things were faked

 

having colleagues admit to using pirated software

 

 

well, there's a few

[ihabkal]

being asked to re-do a rendering that someone else did. The question pops to mind "was that person paid for their work?"

 

being asked to modify someone else's work

 

that happens all the time here in the middle east. once I asked a client who gave me a job that he said someone else failed to do if he paid the guy, he said no. then he said he would only pay after I deliver. then I asked him what if he wasn't satisfied with the work I delivered? he answered that then he wouldn't pay me. talk about a person who acts like a jerk right in your face.

of course I didn't d the job.

 

happens a lot because there is a ton of students with cracked software here who are asking for 50 bucks a rendering, so the clients lost all respect for all renderers, so they try to screw them as much as they can.

 

3 months after I got here I decided not to do any work for any Lebanese architect because of the lack of ethics.

[harryhood]

Hey everyone I appreciate all the responses! I think I have an idea where I'll be going with it now but feel free to share any experiences you've had if it suits you.

[martin walker]

sounds all very relative....personally I wouldnt like to have to visualise a prison, abattoir, animal testing lab...etc etc...but shit happens and while Im eating meat, wearing aftershave and knowing I can call 999 when I want, its all a bit hypocritical !

 

interesting topic though....looking forward to seeing peoples points of view

[Sawyer]

I was offered a position that was a bit weird. As part of my job I would train an Indian company (who worked for pennies to my dollar) to get them to do better illustrations. The images this company was getting from overseas were pretty cheap and it showed. I felt weird about that. Not immoral by any means but these were really expensive properties that were being illustrated (20-50 milllion dollar) it seemed that they could afford top dollar not 2 dollar an hour illustrations.

 

ultimatly I wasn't sure that they would need me longer than it took to train this company.

[Justin Hunt]

Last year I was commissioned to produce some images, great. Recently my 9-5 job has just been commissioned to do some graphic and signage work on the same project.

 

9-5 doesn't know I produced those images, although the graphic designer does. Client doesn't know that I did the original images and work with the graphic deisgner or that the two are exclusive of each other. The original architect is does know and as yet not said anything. They are also long standing clients of mine.

 

Minor conflict of interest may arise if I (as the 9-5er ) am asked to ammend the images to incorporate the signage package.

 

A) If the client askes for the the original architects to ammend the images then they will ask me to do the work, and pay for it.

B) If the client asks the graphic designer to do it then I will have to do the work and not be paid for it, other than my salary.

 

The other conflict is in the grey area of,

 

C) If the graphic designer askes me to ammend the images, is this considered changing someone elses work? even though I am the original producer.

 

What would you do in this situation?

 

JHV

[eksg]

Doing freelance work while being employed as fulltime to a certain company.Please give me your comments?

[tidy]

this is an interesting question.

 

i had a problem like this when i found out a client was using pirate software. on one hand i hate that these people screw our industry and the future development of software but at the same time i cant abide being a rat. this is the toughest thing i have come across...if he was caught, would this reflect badly on my business because i have associations with this slime ball.

 

but at the same time i have to be honest and ask myself if i am i being hypocritical. would i have a problem rolling over on a competitor who i found out was using cracked software...now there is a dilema!

[ZFact]

Doing freelance work while being employed as fulltime to a certain company.Please give me your comments?

 

 

They way I see it... after 5.30pm you are in your own time, and there

should be no ethical reasons why you shouldnt try and make a better living

for yourself providing it is not effecting your performance in your full

time job.

[colinsmith]

Dayjob: working for a company that is in legal dispute with a 2nd company over a new proposal.

 

Freelance: Visualisation images for my employer's proposals, and also for the 2nd company's alternative proposals in that area.......

 

Both sides know the full story though, and I have no real private information from either project. I do get to hear both sides moan about the way the other side is doing things though.....

[BrianKitts]

Doing freelance work while being employed as fulltime to a certain company.Please give me your comments?

 

comes down to company and your contract. Ours has it outlined, you can't use the company name to promote yourself, no use of company resources, and there's probably something in there about overlapping client base.

 

my old boss was so paranoid about losing his employees that he had a blackball clause in our contracts about not doing any work within like 180 miles of our location, and a worse line about not doing any work of the same after leaving the company within that region for 3 months. Attorney friend of mine said it would never stand in court and if I ever had to he could have it knocked down.... but still it was there (and the guy was nuts) come to think of it that brings up another one for ethics...

 

working for a boss who treats clients like crap, tells them their designs are poor (cause no one designs better than him.... keep in mind we were a rendering firm, not an architectura design firm), and basically steps on every business relationship he ever made. Working for 3 years for a jerk like that was just plain wrong!

[John Dollus]

this is an interesting question.

 

i had a problem like this when i found out a client was using pirate software. on one hand i hate that these people screw our industry and the future development of software but at the same time i cant abide being a rat. this is the toughest thing i have come across...if he was caught, would this reflect badly on my business because i have associations with this slime ball.

 

but at the same time i have to be honest and ask myself if i am i being hypocritical. would i have a problem rolling over on a competitor who i found out was using cracked software...now there is a dilema!

 

 

Many companies now outsource to artists who charge very little for their work. The ethical issue arrises in knowing that these subcontractors may not own legal companies or legal software. Unethical businessmen enable this through their financial support and it is a dangerous practice. How long can they act as mere brokers for an illegal industry?

Many moonlighters use software and equipment from their day job to produce work for outside clients while charging the same rate as a fulltime professional who must incur many additional expenses. This is also an ethical issue.

 

To Tidy, your post is an excellent case of situational ethics. If a person is benefiting from the situation, they take no action but if they are adversely affected by the situation, the viewpoint changes.

[rotten42]

I do my own freelance work after hours as well. When I came back to the company I work at during the day we wrote into my contracts that I cannot do work that conflicts with their market. I have no problem with that. I also had written in that anything I did at the dayjob had shared rights between us.

 

 

I recently had a sistuation where a repeat client had asked for a price on a couple of renders. I gave them my quote and told them I could meet their tight time frame. Well, I didn't hear back from them so I called. It turns out that a competitor has come in with an price that is more than 50% less. I have a good idea who it is. This prson consistantly does this. There is no weay this guy is using legal software. At his prices it would be impossible. Anyway, The client said I could have the job if I lowered my prices to match it. In a very nice way I told the client to stuff it!

[jasonio]

With 3rd world e-companies on the rise - happy to take on work for peanuts (in western terms) - you have to question the ethics of the actual clients rather than the visualisers as it is they who choose whom to take on. Not only are they deliberately taking advantage of the poor for profits-sake, they are damaging the long term economic prospects of their own country's economy.

 

On the other hand, taking advantage of 3rd world economic differences does directly help that 3rd-world country's economy. This allows them the opportunity to grow their economy and compete in an essentially closed western marketplace. Kind of ironic that actions without good intentions could possibly have a 'positive' benefit...

 

Then again, perhaps (more than likely) the software being used in these 3rd world countries isn't legit. Then again it's too expensive for them to afford so what choice do they have? Ultimately, the real damage comes back around to the western visualisation co. who, working by the rule book, ticking all the legal boxes gets overlooked for the cheaper option, and around and around and around we go...

[Tommy L]

I got asked by another artist if i would sell him the max file so that he could see how id done everything to improve his own work. Not that big a deal, but should you sell your accumulated knowledge? Or just your product?

I didnt in the end. But i would for the right price......

[rotten42]

I got asked by another artist if i would sell him the max file so that he could see how id done everything to improve his own work. Not that big a deal, but should you sell your accumulated knowledge? Or just your product?

I didnt in the end. But i would for the right price......

 

Instead of selling the max file, sell training services. You pass on the knowledge but it's still up to the person to apply it.

[BrianKitts]

Instead of selling the max file, sell training services. You pass on the knowledge but it's still up to the person to apply it.

 

I think you could do either.... as long as you aren't selling the guy a max file that he's going to turn around render and sell as a product.... then there's no reason why it would be a bad idea to do it. I mean I've learned more than I could list by reverse engineering aspects of scenes from tutorial downloads and other sources on the net. In a way you are selling him a "training service".... ron is on the right track, I think the only ethical question on this one is what is the person planning on doing with the max scene.

[ihabkal]

I was offered a position that was a bit weird. As part of my job I would train an Indian company (who worked for pennies to my dollar) to get them to do better illustrations. The images this company was getting from overseas were pretty cheap and it showed. I felt weird about that. Not immoral by any means but these were really expensive properties that were being illustrated (20-50 milllion dollar) it seemed that they could afford top dollar not 2 dollar an hour illustrations.

 

ultimatly I wasn't sure that they would need me longer than it took to train this company.

 

This is crazy and seems it happens everywhere. in 2004 when I was in the US, my ex employer nagged me for months to write a booklet about every procedure I use to make a rendering so that he can send it to chinese modelers he was using so that they can help us better. I delayed and refused. now I moved back home to lebanon he was sending me chinese made models to fix and other jobs all the time. then I noticed the chinese models were starting to look like mine. They originally modeled in Autocad and then imported into max, but now they model like me in max and they use the same modifiers I use regularly. then work slowed down till he once asked me to do something at half the regular price, I declined and it has been 2 months since I got anything from him. I know for sure he sent them scenes I did and told them to learn my techniques. now I am not sorry because he was paying me $22.5 an hour while I can easily make 2 to 4 times that much working on my own. but I am sad about losing the many years old relationship with the only employer I was happy to work for simply because he wants to save a hundred bucks a project.

sad thing...

[colinsmith]

To widen that a bit....

 

When you do a render for a client, they get the images / animation, and the project files and setup techniques are yours to keep, unless you priced for selling those too.

 

Does that apply in anyway to your employer?

Are they automatically entilted to all your development, setup and project files?

 

Probably mostly.... but, suppose have a project where you use some of your own stock resources, maybe photos you took and worked up to textures.... do you leave them those too....

 

I guess it's clear enough that they are entitled to anything you did while you were being paid to work.... but what if you use some intricate techniques that you have developed yourself over years, maybe before you ever worked for the company....

[AJLynn]

Yes, yes, maybe.

[Ernest Burden III]

Does that apply in anyway to your employer? Are they automatically entilted to all your development, setup and project files?

 

If you are a freelancer, no. If an employee, yes. Unless you have a written contract that states otherwise.

 

 

suppose have a project where you use some of your own stock resources, maybe photos you took and worked up to textures.... do you leave them those too....

 

I had a client who wanted to see his 'other project' across the street from the new one, so he sent me a model. I asked, and he said he had paid the company that did animation for their model. Let's hope that was true. It probably was, since they sent it to him. But it was more than just a model of the buildings, it had animated cars, birds and RPC objects. It was the whole file. So ethically, I used the model but have never touched the file again as I don't own rights to those cars and RPCs and all the work that went into animating a flock of birds.

[colinsmith]

I'll throw in the specific example that set me off down this line....

 

There's a Lightwave render trick where you spin light arrays and use motion blur as extra interpolation, as a fast GI fake.

 

Suppose I was the clever guy that thought this up, spent a lot of time working it out and automating it in my own time.

Later I'm working for a visualisation company, project comes up, very tight time contraints, so I fire up my trusty lighting rig and we make deadline.

Soon after that I move on.

Other people at the company dig out the scene files and start re-using my light rig in every scene they do for the next 10 years.

 

I didn't get paid for the light rig they are using, only for the particular project....

 

I know you don't have any legal rights to hang onto techniques.... but since we are talking ethics.... how much of my "expertise" are they able to re-use independantly ;-)

 

 

*Disclaimer... I don't develope many setups of much interest and don't pass on scene files ;-)

[Chad Warner]

I think in that case, if you don't want the employer to know about it, then don't show it to them. Otherwise, if you bring it into the office as a "technique" then you can expect it to be used after you leave.