Attracting 3D Artists?

[Tommy L]

Whats the pay?

[3DIFX]

I'm concerned that the next company that thinks about offering jobs to us reads this and says 'no thanks, I don't want to be criticized for not being able to consider sub-contractors'.

 

I totally agree with you Ernest. There a lot of people that visit CGA for their prospective purposes. The members of these forums encompass the entire cg industry spectrum as well. IMHO, in reading these posts, one must realize that the views expressed by individual members does not represent a consensus of us all. Everyone has their own mind and opinions. These forums are simply a vehicle to express them. I am generalizing, but I don't believe that anyone here intends to run prospective employers away from posting their job openings here at CGA. In order maintain the level of professionalism that Jeff has strived to obtain on these forums and in order to gain and keep the esteem that we deserve as an industry, I believe that we all should respond to one another with a certain respect. Not trying to preach. Just my thoughts.

[bully712]

Mark-

 

No disrespect intended, but I think you may be, in effect, scaring off the people you're hoping to lure. I know your frustrations are legitimate, but airing them so emphatically in the midst of the people you're looking to as potential employees is probably a bit counterproductive.

 

In an attempt to be constructive, let me offer a few thoughts:

 

- Your site doesn't show much work related to archviz- and whether you feel it's fair or not, it's not a point in your favor. A prospective employee's hope that they might work amongst accomplished people within their field is not conveyed.

 

- The Cinema4D issue is not as minor as you might think! Most skilled CG folks like to see their work through to the end, have evolved considerable skills in executing renderings, and have invested a lot of time in mastering their rendering app of choice. Furthermore, for many, rendering is the most rewarding part of the viz process. I'm not saying this to suggest that you need to alter your pipeline (believe me, I'm not applying) but don't fool yourself into thinking that this isn't an issue for those who are not C4D fluent. For most people in the field, saying C4D rendering is a requirement (even though you're not suggesting that they themselves have to do it) will be interpreted to mean you want a C4D pro. Your insistence that C4D rendering is not an issue suggests that you don't really 'get' how CG types tick.

 

Bearing the above in mind, a significant number of people may interpret your ad like this:

 

-Have to relocate

-Not so comfortable with the level of work your firm is currently doing

-Won't be able to render my own models(!)

 

So... that's the downside... what's the upside?

 

well said Andrew

[William Alexander]

Most skilled CG folks like to see their work through to the end, have evolved considerable skills in executing renderings, and have invested a lot of time in mastering their rendering app of choice. Furthermore, for many, rendering is the most rewarding part of the viz process. I'm not saying this to suggest that you need to alter your pipeline (believe me, I'm not applying) but don't fool yourself into thinking that this isn't an issue for those who are not C4D fluent. For most people in the field, saying C4D rendering is a requirement (even though you're not suggesting that they themselves have to do it) will be interpreted to mean you want a C4D pro. Your insistence that C4D rendering is not an issue suggests that you don't really 'get' how CG types tick.?

 

Well I'm going to end ...on this note. If you have evolved beyond working in a studio environment or with projects that are MUCH MUCH LARGER than one excpetionally skilled artist can handle....you maybe totally useless and quite possibly have quite an attitude problem, AKA not a team player. The few people whom I know that work in any large studio, for film vfx as an example, never work on the "entire" project even though they generally are hired because they can and know the pipeline. That's the bottom line...you can be great as you want to believe as a freelancer but belieivng your the greatest thing since sliced bread, ain't going to get you too far with anyone who really knows CG production...and many Arch / ArchViz firms are not up to speed. Smoothe and the likes....don't think attitude will get you any work.

 

Like I said previously it's great to be a freelancer....it's even greater to have proven production expereince in your back pocket, not just your own belief your qualified and can dictate to a potential employer or client....your terms and intimidate them into doing something they have not planned or can properly accomodate. Rremote freelancing is just starting....the reality is it will take much more to make it viable to production houses than you may know or understand. It will happen, just that right now the social/networking aspects of 'doing' business and management are no where near developed enough.

 

My rant is over....come to Dallas and prove Mark wrong if you have any beefs with these statements....just check the attitude at the door some people in the studio may wear cowboy boots

 

WDA

[Adehus]

Well I'm going to end ...on this note ... just check the attitude at the door some people in the studio may wear cowboy boots

 

You mention that archviz types are rarely trained to be a part of the multidisciplinary pipeline workflow. Don't disagree. But how should he appeal to people with that more generalist mindset? If he was looking for a person to fit into a specific location in a pipeline, 'general 3d artist' probably isn't the best description to provide to people who are inherently generalists. Know your audience, and all that...

 

I guess overall, I feel as though the original poster is posting a bit too much about what prospective employees aren't doing for him, and shortchanging the part where he talks about what he can do for them or how he understands their needs/interests/motivations. It'll only work out if both parties are happy, right?. My original point stands- I expressed what, to me, are the downsides... so what's the upside?

 

Supply and demand, and all that... in a bad employment market, providing a position is offer enough. In a good market, though, it is sensible to expect that it takes something more, be it money, job satisfaction, work enviroment, etc... And it's entirely expected that those of us on the 'potential employee' side of the equation inquire about what that 'something more' is, or at least suggest that 'something more' is needed.

[pipjor]

poor attitude??? yep...

Allen Iverson, probally one of the most "talented" NBA players was pretty much told not to come back to work(Philly 76'ers) anymore because of his poor attitude...

[Adehus]

poor attitude??? yep...

Allen Iverson, probally one of the most "talented" NBA players was pretty much told not to come back to work(Philly 76'ers) anymore because of his poor attitude...

 

Same thing happened to Bobby Knight. But so what? We're not talking about an employer-employee relationship, we're talking about an employer who is obviously not attracting employees and is complaining to the very people he is trying to attract. Not smooth- I bet even Bobby had the smarts to know not to complain about his prospective recruits TO THEM, let alone on a public forum.

 

It just seems so obvious to me- you want employees, tell us why you're worth working for. Assuming you can get one, you'll have plenty of opportunity to berate them later.

[RyanSpaulding]

poor attitude??? yep...

Allen Iverson, probally one of the most "talented" NBA players was pretty much told not to come back to work(Philly 76'ers) anymore because of his poor attitude...

 

Not true. He has the Barry Sanders situation. How long can you work trying to win and remain positive when an employer doesn't surround you with anyone of merit for a decade?

 

It's be like if you had a job as a 3d modeler and your models were clean, set up well, accurate, top-notch....and then they brought in a texture artist who would over-saturate and have immense tiling, the lighting expert wouldn't know how to use GI, the renderer would overly compress your image and consistently output the wrong size, and your web guy would post it too small and hidden within your website. And this happened to you for a decade.

 

But this is neither here nor there

[vizwhiz]

It just seems so obvious to me- you want employees, tell us why you're worth working for. Assuming you can get one, you'll have plenty of opportunity to berate them later.

 

why wait?

[pipjor]

sorry maybe you misunderstood, i was comparing Ihab's "I'm the best, all my past employeres suck" attitude towards Iverson's all my x-coaches sucked i'm the best...............

 

Barry Sanders??? check out some of Jordan's teamates in the early years with the Bulls.

[ihabkal]

Mark-

 

-Won't be able to render my own models(!)

 

So... that's the downside... what's the upside?

 

about that I just want to say that I do models for others and I don't even see the end product most of the time, at first it was a bit strange, but now I find that if the pay is good I don't care what they do with the model. I really don't. As long as they're happy and I didn't mess up the model all is fine. I don't complain at all. so what you said about this matter does not apply to everyone all the time...

[Adehus]

at first it was a bit strange, but now I find that if the pay is good I don't care what they do with the model.

 

Therein lies my point...

[William Alexander]

Allright...that's enough self righteous BS.

 

Mr Alameel started this thread in an effort to understand why there was a less than expected response to his ad/s. The responses here certianly explain much to me, not that I don't already understand the 'attitude'.

 

Honestly...keep it up, your making it much easier for the true proffessionals to find work. I do not imply you all are not good CG artists, just not very seasoned in proffessional behavior and conduct. If you knew and understood MR Alameel and what he was doing you'd be ashamed that you even implied what has been stated in this thread about him and his studio. All he is doing is asking a question and you all are arguing with him and bashing him for not considering "your" personal needs and desires before how he is trying to pay the bills and run his business....that have to be first to pay the employees. He's the man with the checkbook, piss them off, you'll never get a check or job to recieve a check from....bottom line

 

Nothing new though, same in all industries, but this is much closer to 'tradesman' conduct in construction as opposed to what "Architecture" and other 'Proffessions' aspire to for conduct, imho

 

WDA

[Tommy L]

this thread is getting funnier every time i come back, come on, who's next?

[Adehus]

If you knew and understood MR Alameel and what he was doing you'd be ashamed that you even implied what has been stated in this thread about him and his studio.

 

Seems like that's the crux of the problem... we don't understand.

 

You write as if you have some personal connection to him. I don't. All I'm responding to is what I see.

[loydering]

Here's a thought...

 

Have you looked into local art schools? We have a similar problem in Denver about "qualified" 3D artist. My experience has been that it is a difficult adjustment for some freelancers to join a team environment. We've had much success with local art schools. Although they may not have the expereince or be one of the top four in their country, most of them do have the raw skills, and are trainable to your needs. At least check out the next senior show. You may be surprised.

[Fran]

WDA, I think the problem with the ad was that this site probably isn't the place to find a lot of people interested in the type of 3d work Mr. Alameel was hiring for. The lack of success has more to do with the wrong target audience for the work being advertised then anyone's attitude (on either side of the issue), lack of qualifications, preferred domestic status, or over-qualification. Anyone who is skilled in all areas of production is certainly an asset only if those skills can be deployed to the benefit of the company he or she works for.

 

To recap, maybe I've over-simplified the situation. But after looking at the web site and seeing the types of projects his company produces, it seems to be a simple matter of a mismatch of specialization within the various 3d fields and nothing more. I would never apply for a job I wasn't suited for and expect it to suit itself to me.

[Adehus]

But after looking at the web site and seeing the types of projects his company produces, it seems to be a simple matter of a mismatch of specialization within the various 3d fields and nothing more. I would never apply for a job I wasn't suited for and expect it to suit itself to me.

 

That about sums it up for me... well put, Fran.

 

I guess I was seeing Mr. Alameel looking for some sort of hybrid archviz/video production guy. If he's looking here, then it seems natural to want to know why someone of my/our backgroud would be interested... and I don't think he conveyed that. That's all I'm saying.

[Ernest Burden III]

Mr Alameel started this thread in an effort to understand why there was a less than expected response to his ad/s. The responses here certianly explain much to me

 

Unfortunately I've learned a few things about my colleagues, too.

 

... we don't understand.

You write as if you have some personal connection to him. I don't.

 

I've been on both sides of the hiring line, I've worked in a McDonalds, too. I was 16, but I got the point of what is involved in being an employee, and I have had the experience of both hiring people and applying for work. Its actually quite simple.

 

There are roles in life. In a free society we can go from one to another, but each is well defined. I think this thread illustrates that some people haven't had the opportunity to learn that life lesson. I think that's a shame, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

We should not attack someone for trying to find out where they might have gone wrong. It is arrogant to assume that what is not right for you is not right for anyone.

[William Alexander]

WDA, I think the problem with the ad was that this site probably isn't the place to find a lot of people interested in the type of 3d work Mr. Alameel was hiring for.

 

....however At least the Ad I responded to said "ArchViz" to me, the rest would be up to me to initiate and and determine as much as was possible about the studio, work, working environment, is it all archviz ect. Of course my core skills are in ArchViz, but the other side of what his studio does would suit me just fine too.... and the work is very likely what many at CGA would and should be interested in. I know Mark through the Pixel Corps soo...some projects you can only "talk" so much about and bragging/ doing the Tom Saywer sales pitch to woo perspective employees is always a dangerous game.

 

Personally I'm kind of dumbfounded that there aren't more C4D artists who would at least approach Mr Alameel about the possibility of employment. Many discussions about the possible whys and how too's. However that seems to be across the "boards", literally. C4D is preferred but not mandatory in all reality. Relocating is another issue, that's not an easy one ever if your not local. For me anyway it comes down to going where the work is and there is much more to a job than just $$$$ and accolades. Notice where I'm hangin' out these days Mr Spalding should understand why LOL

 

WDA

[Devin Johnston]

I'm going to throw in my 2 cents, before CGA went to the paid system of job postings I posted a job listing for a position I needed filled. I specifically stated that I wasn't interested in freelancers and the individual had to live in Houston or be willing to move here. Every reply I received was either from a freelancer or a company wanting me to buy renderings from them; needless to say it didn't help my search. I can understand the frustration in not getting the responses you want from a job posting but since it was free for me I had no reason to complain. Once you pay for something it's reasonable to expect something in return, in this case your expectation is you will receive applications from qualified individuals. That is the danger in having people pay for this kind of service, I'm not saying that it's good or bad only that the people who are paying the bill are going to expect something for their money. Now if the problem is that the employer wasn't descriptive enough in their posting as to properly communicate what they are looking for in an employee then that is another matter.

[Charles Gaushell]

... Every reply I received was either from a freelancer or a company wanting me to buy renderings from them; needless to say it didn't help my search...

 

Ditto. Which is why we don't post job searches here anymore - especially now that they want you to pay for it. We are starting to hunt people down, network and go through various schools.

 

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the job posting or the company searching, it is frustrating to have people ignore the job post specifics. Quite frankly, it is unprofessional and doesn't increase my desire to work with someone that doesn't follow instructions.

[Chad Warner]

I had the same issue with job postings. About 80% of the responses were from freelancers or other companies. I can't fault CGArchitect for this though. It's not Jeff's fault that people don't read the posting all the way through.

[Charles Gaushell]

I had the same issue with job postings. About 80% of the responses were from freelancers or other companies. I can't fault CGArchitect for this though. It's not Jeff's fault that people don't read the posting all the way through.

 

Not his fault at all, and not sure what he could even do about it. But it doesn't make it worthwhile for our company to mess with when having to pay for it.

[Ernest Burden III]

20 years ago (or so) people put ads in local newspapers to look for job applicants. People from Thailand could not very easily respond to an ad for a job in Cleveland, OH. Now we can all see the listings or any company anywhere and many people are trying to make an opportunity for themselves where one never existed before. Its hard to fault someone for that--besides the obvious point of 'read the requirements'. The model has changed.

 

So what to do? I had an idea and this is as good a place as any to post it and see what some of you who have placed ads here and elsewhere on the net think. It is an idea for sites like the one CGA has to post ads.

 

Perhaps a company could choose to have responses filtered through a multiple-choice form. It would cover the basics and allow the applicant to get their name in the running, but allow the employer to force them to go through the critical list of requirements. Like this:

 

_I am looking for full-time salaried employment

 

_I am willing and able to take a permanent position in Dallas, TX.

 

_I can legally work in the United States

 

My experience in Max is _expert _good _fast learner

 

 

etc, with an area for comments perhaps, but really a checklist that the applicant will need to complete to be in the running for the job. Sure, people could ignore that and email directly with offers of sub-contracts, but maybe this would help the serious respondents get the attention of the employer, and know what they are expected to be willing to do.

 

Well?