Attracting 3D Artists?

[RyanSpaulding]

^^^ Good ideas.

[manta]

good idea Ernest...

[William Alexander]

20 years ago ads in newspapers, LOL try a couple years ago.

 

Need expereinced carpenter for framing...favorite wtf response

 

"Eye's Knows Studdin' "

 

 

Advertising for employees is always a costly matter. The longer you do it the more it seems to cost more than the responses you get. Well unless you have full paid benefits, then they come out of the woodwork. That's another problem filtering the leeches from those who will perform worthy of the salary and benefits package.

 

Ernest points are a good thought, though I believe much of that was included in the "employee" part of the CG employment. It was so convoluted I never finished or could find my way back to where I left off.

 

Now from an employers stand point, very small studio/freelancer the cost of running an add for C4D artists to work locally here is not worth the cost. Obviously Max atists will yeild something. I'm sure results will vary LOL

[Devin Johnston]

Ernest's idea about a filter is a very good one because it seems like a lot of people who are posting jobs are getting spammed by freelancers and others looking for work. My only suggestion would be to hide the employers contact information, let the individual submit their resume and work, if the employer wants to start a dialogue leave it up to them.

Even though I didn't find any employees through the CGA job board that doesn’t mean that I don't appreciate it and believe it is a good thing to have. Jeff is a very smart guy and this new board hasn't been up very long so I know that changes will come and with good suggestions like the "Ernest filter" how can if fail;)

[Nils Norgren]

This is a long, painful thread but it brings up interesting questions (none of which I have an answer too).

 

One thing to think about, our industry is still very young, it also is unique in many ways. I can't think of any industry where the barrier to entry (technically) is so low, the talent of the individuals great, and the end dream of most people is not to have a comfortable career working for others but for themselves. The Architectural Rendering industry is (in my opinion) is a parallel but separate industry to Architectural Visualization. One-off renderings as a business model is different from what most arch-viz companies are currently doing, Currently most large Arch Viz firms are essentially marketing companies, some have even made the jump to full blown advertising agency models.

 

These factors have a unique effect in the US, talented people are everywhere but they are hard to find, because I believe they are either, doing it themselves and liking that lifestyle, or they are happy where they are and are not looking to change, or they have the expectation of a large salary.

 

There are many factors going on in the mind set of people in the industry. My opinion is, only a few people look to a full time job in a studio environment as their ideal situation. As the industry matures and people start to come in from other directions (Film effects, TV production, graphic design, commercial illustration, etc) things will open up some.

 

my 2¢

 

-Nils

[William Alexander]

There are many factors going on in the mind set of people in the industry. My opinion is, only a few people look to a full time job in a studio environment as their ideal situation. As the industry matures and people start to come in from other directions (Film effects, TV production, graphic design, commercial illustration, etc) things will open up some.

 

Those other directions and the studios that have those capabilites are the place to be right now....before it becomes main stream. At what point does being a freelancer without a broader knowledge/proven experience and only a specialty become a liability in an ever increasing competetive market. Mr Alameels studio is a perfect fit in many ways, imho, to that mindset. LOL Oh but that's right you'll get a dream job working on a movie by specializing in Architectural stills, snicker, NOT.... I know just about everyone reading this certianly has secret hidden aspirations to do so

 

Well I personally can't see why more individuals are not exploring those thoughts and at least making some initial contacts. So many times what appears to be a plain vanilla ad is really so much more. Anybody who has generally read my posts knows I'm not mainstream...by any stretch. But then again a reference, a decent portfolio, a round of discussions....lead to a dream job, state of the art hardware, software, working with incredibly talented coworkers, pushing the edges of software/hardware, on a massive project. Can't even imagine how that could have happened freelancing, although it did mean moving 900 miles south. Obviously not for everyone.

 

The point is really about being open to possibilites and through making contacts, even if you may not really intend to give up freelancing find out how you rank, what other studios are doing-how you may fit, we all exist in a big world and narrow uninformed views will only serve to limit your successes. I say that realizing Architecture and ArchViz by it's nature being "of" Architecture is a very ridgid, narrow and self contianed view of the world. So it's inhertent that these types of discussions and passionate responses, as in this thread, will happen. It's difficult for people who have a broader view opf the CGVFX industry to understand how quirky the ArchViz segment can be. LOL Unless you've spent a great deal of time dealing with Architects...especially going through college with future ones LOL

 

WDA

[Ernest Burden III]

I personally can't see why more individuals are not exploring those thoughts and at least making some initial contacts.

 

I'm not sure why, either. Well the first thing is lighting bonfire to the vanities. That's actually quite hard. In a studio you're no longer the star. It takes a long time for some of us to get to the point that its no longer important to have our own name on the work. But I got there.

 

a reference, a decent portfolio, a round of discussions....lead to a dream job, state of the art hardware, software, working with incredibly talented coworkers, pushing the edges of software/hardware, on a massive project.

 

That has been the attraction for me, as well. Especially the part about working with other talented artists. I finally know enough to have some things to offer others in this industry. I may end up working for a larger studio and if I do it will be because of those things you listed. There is something more than being a lone gunner, though there's nothing wrong with it per se.

 

I'm not sure about expecting to finding a 'dream job'. At some point simply working in your chosen field is the dream, you have a job and you do your best work and that is enough. One of the pitfalls of being a freelancer is that tomorrow you are going to be offered this massive project, an amazing opportunity to work hard for a short burst and make loads of money, do fantastic work and really open all the doors. In otherwords, the windfall, the lottery. It probably will not happen but holding off accepting a steady position with an established studio in hopes of getting that sort of good fortune is a common malady of many freelancer I know. Or am. At this point I would rather join a team doing great work than try to do it all myself. It gets old.

[Charles Gaushell]

Ernest, I agree, though I guess I'm biased. We started Paradigm with two of us, now we are 11. It is actually a lot more fun now. We have a great office and the artists feed off of each other. It is pretty hard to develop on your own and even limited in a small office.

 

You do have to have a different mind set as part of a team as you mentioned because the line gets blurry saying - that is my project. We don't have an assembly line by any means, but several hands may touch a project.

 

Environment makes a huge difference. It is just as imperitive for the office to provide the right environment as it is to get people that work well together. I'll take a good attitude over exceptional talent any day.

 

Funny thing is that 2 of our last 4 hires had their own firms and the other 2 had worked in very small offices (one was in a two man office, the other at a design firm where he was the only 3d guy).

[William Alexander]

I'm not sure why, either. Well the first thing is lighting bonfire to the vanities. That's actually quite hard. In a studio you're no longer the star. It takes a >>long time

 

ROTFL my arse off......ain't that the truth.

 

 

 

That has been the attraction for me, as well. Especially the part about working with other talented artists. I finally know enough to have some things to offer others in this industry. I may end up working for a larger studio and if I do it will be because of those things you listed. There is something more than being a lone gunner, though there's nothing wrong with it per se.

 

Don't sell yourself short... your up to speed on the software side and more to your credit and benefit is your 'artisitc' understanding of the ArchViz and greater CG media. I for one certianly have gained a great deal from your posts and what you have shared so openly with the community here. LOL looks like Charles see's a few things too

 

The lone gunner.....nothing wrong with having plan 'B' in place LOL Personally plan 'C' is swingin' da hammer. Like A & B just a bit more and the future (my body holding out) is of a very finite end with plan 'C'.

 

I'm not sure about expecting to finding a 'dream job'. At some point simply working in your chosen field is the dream, you have a job and you do your best work and that is enough. One of the pitfalls of being a freelancer is that tomorrow you are going to be offered this massive project, an amazing opportunity to work hard for a short burst and make loads of money, do fantastic work and really open all the doors. In otherwords, the windfall, the lottery. It probably will not happen but holding off accepting a steady position with an established studio in hopes of getting that sort of good fortune is a common malady of many freelancer I know. Or am. At this point I would rather join a team doing great work than try to do it all myself. It gets old.

 

LOL There is no dream job, after all it is work. Guess I'd say it's more about finding the jobs...that lead to the next greater hope or desired accomplishment. A vehicle to get you closer to some greater goal. Be it retirement with security or working in feature films or whatever it maybe. The vehicles get tired, worn out over time...it's about trading up before they break down

 

I didn't end up doing the freelancing in the CG end with any great hopes of finaicail windfall... to many years of being a contractor/subcontractor in another industry though I did manage to survive for over 20 years there...sheer will power as it does with any 'self employment' situation.

 

The job I took here in Dallas, was about the massive scope of the project and this little rack filled with 12 top 'o' the line Boxx render nodes...12 more where on the way. A freelancers wet dream...big virtual swwainnngggggg. Good enough for me to bite and the circumstances of making a move fell into place. The rest a collaboartive work environment, talented coworkers, great 'Boss' was a bonus. It's not a gravy 9-5 by any stretch, it's work and crunch time is crunch time alone or among many others. I live for crunch time...love the extended 2-12 hour adrenline rush, LOL Yeah I'm definately not right in the head...but it can work to my advantage

 

None of that would have have happened, had I not initiated a very respectful discussion (fishing expedition) for information. Thats the key that unlocks the door, the rest is portfolio, good proffessional references and busting your ass to follow through if you get the job. It's a number game though, you have to knock on a fairly large number of doors or have killer networking going for you. That's for the peanut gallery....Ernest already understands that.

 

Cheers

WDA

[Simon Moir]

Most people in our industry work on Max, not Cinema, and most don't live in Dallas. Texas is a matter of taste. I lived in Oklahoma when I was a kid, so I know its a part of the country you should really want to be in to go there. Its not for everyone. Texas is great, but in its own way. My point is that the location may be the biggest part of your lower than expected response rate. But I'm sure that a lager salary than other places would help, or really exciting work. Perhaps you could make a bigger point of that part of the offering?

 

 

Texas? I'd move anywhere if they paid me in Lager.

[Adehus]

The job I took here in Dallas, was about the massive scope of the project and this little rack filled with 12 top 'o' the line Boxx render nodes...12 more where on the way. A freelancers wet dream...big virtual swwainnngggggg.

 

Glad to see you found something that makes you happy, but do you really believe that you possess the rosetta stone that unlocks the code to what makes ALL freelancers tick? Hollywood? Buncha Boxxes? Not for me personally.

 

It's interesting that when an employer comes here to ask why he can't attract talent, your solution is to chide everyone else for not looking into it. Are you really *that* proud of yourself for having done so??!

[William Alexander]

Glad to see you found something that makes you happy, but do you really believe that you possess the rosetta stone that unlocks the code to what makes ALL freelancers tick? Hollywood? Buncha Boxxes? Not for me personally.

 

It's interesting that when an employer comes here to ask why he can't attract talent, your solution is to chide everyone else for not looking into it. Are you really *that* proud of yourself for having done so??!

 

NO... the idea is to search ask questions and not limit possibilites. It's one thing to have talent. Freelancing requires much more than talent, business sense accumen people skills that can be applied to exploring other 'non' freelance type work too. As in set the bonfire to your vanity, wake up and smell the coffee...the world does not revolve around you and how great you are.... long term success is in how you learn to and actually fit into it. After that we head into discussions about constructs and the map not being the territory. To many people have maps of thier own creation and try to make the world fit them...doesn't work, tried failed miserably ;)Kind of like thinking I'm chiding....it's only my observations, however humble they maybe.

[ShaunDon]

Ernest, you're right on the money with the whole vanity thing, it's something I've struggled to overcome as well. I went to the Savannah College of Art and Design to get a degree in computer art in the hopes of one day working in film vfx... but I quickly became disillusioned by the idea of being a cog in a 200+ person shop. The idea of working on massive projects that would have name recognition for anyone I met wasn't as appealing as retaining some level of ownership over the project. I'd done archviz to make money while I was in school, and ended up eventually dropping out to help my colleague start Tangram.

 

I realize now that there are plenty small studios working on big projects, and one day I hope to move on, but our firm is in its fourth year now and doing very well. I don't try to do everything myself anymore, but now the pride comes from seeing what this company can do and knowing that I in part made it possible.

 

Shaun

[Chad Warner]

Shaun- You went to SCAD? I graduated in 97 from the architecture program there. (and I am still here in Savannah)

 

And to get back on topic, we've hired freelancers in the past, but never been real happy with the outcome. I'd much rather have someone on site that is part of the team and the process. It's much easier to deal with on my end than trying to get someone over the phone or email to convey what needs to be changed when I can just yell across the room.

[Adehus]

NO... the idea is to search ask questions and not limit possibilites. It's one thing to have talent. Freelancing requires much more than talent, business sense accumen people skills that can be applied to exploring other 'non' freelance type work too. As in set the bonfire to your vanity, wake up and smell the coffee...the world does not revolve around you and how great you are.... long term success is in how you learn to and actually fit into it. After that we head into discussions about constructs and the map not being the territory. To many people have maps of thier own creation and try to make the world fit them...doesn't work, tried failed miserably ;)Kind of like thinking I'm chiding....it's only my observations, however humble they maybe.

 

Gosh... I didn't think I ever suggested that the world revolved around me. I believe I was speaking of supply and demand, and how it effects people's choices- choices in how employers seek employees, choices in how employees regard potential employers. Make no mistake- I was simply suggesting various things I thought Mr. Alameel could do to make his offer more attractive (one man's opinion of course), and you kept posting anklebiting comments about how arrogant I must be to not see the incredible appeal of his offer. Well, me and, oh, everyone else! Which is not to say that it *isn't* potentially attractive, but it is to say that if it is an attractive offer, it wasn't coming through in his advertisement and posting.

 

Which, in turn, was the whole point of the freakin' thread! (C'mon, swallow your pride and admit it.)

 

These thoughts that you pose as fact are not new to me, in spite of your apparent need to condescend. Why are they not new to me? Well, prior to freelancing, I was in a collaborative work environment for 10 years, and believe it or not, I know how it works. Shocking as this may seem to you, freelancing was an opportunity to me- in concept when I started, and in reality at this point. Y'know... lots of these firms you feel compelled to place on a pedestal started with one or two freelancers, right?

 

So, like I suggested earlier- go play with your boxxes, and enjoy it to the fullest. I mean that sincerely. Just don't assume that your pleasure, your approach to work, love, and life, is the same as everyone elses.

 

Oh, and if you get a chance, take a look:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

[CRD]

I would like to add my positive/negative experience with my job add from 6 months ago.

 

I posted a job opening for an ArchViz position for someone with Max experience that must relocate to Dallas and most of the replies I got were from out of the country. I would say that 1 out of 10 were close to the job description and eventually I ended up hiring someone who found us through the CGA ad.

 

So now we are expanding again and I'm working on getting the ad together to try again.

 

I've found that ArchViz is a selective sub category of the overall 3D industry and there are not that many places to post an ad and get responses. So I'm willing to wade thru the pile to eventually find the right person.

[ShaunDon]

Hey Chad -- yessir, I attended SCAD for nearly two years, then transferred for a semester to the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn before I decided that it wasn't the school that I was unhappy with so much as the major. Do you know Jody LaRue by any chance? He's a colleague of mine up here in Portsmouth, and I think he graduated from SCAD about the same time as you.

 

[/derail]

 

Colin, I think many of us who have been in a hiring position will echo your experience. It's a bitch of an industry to find qualified people for since it requires both architectural and computer graphics skills, and someone who is willing to work under deadline pressures with changes up to the last minute and then some. And anyone who does computer viz work knows our margins do not allow for hefty salaries, which oftentimes the folks you'd want to hire demand. It's been easier for us at times to find someone with some skills and a ton of motivation and train them the rest of the way.

 

Shaun

[William Alexander]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

 

LOL, relax..it's no big thing. If you are in demand great, if your not great too. Forcing the idea of changing a business's approach to doing business becasue freelancing works for you (only as an example-do you freelance?) is good. Just don't be overly pushy and surprised when the party on the end says thank you but no thank you.

 

I do not suggest anything... coppin' an attitude is not called for. If I got under your skin...my apoligizes. Was not my intent to ruin your day and get you all ornery. Many ways to get ahead, just have found from over 2 decades of selling and dealing with a very wide rnage of people, businesses...that there is much more to getting what you want out of a job, freelancing, that meets the eye. You have your opinion, hopefully it works for you. I have mine, it's proven to be invaluable to me.... that's it

 

Over and out

 

WDA

[Adehus]

Forcing the idea of changing a business's approach to doing business becasue freelancing works for you (only as an example-do you freelance?) is good. Just don't be overly pushy and surprised when the party on the end says thank you but no thank you.

 

Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else) have I suggested anything like that (and I've never tried to do it as a freelancer either). Are you sure you don't have me mixed up with someone else? This just keeps getting weirder and weirder- are you willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying?

[William Alexander]

Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else) have I suggested anything like that (and I've never tried to do it as a freelancer either). Are you sure you don't have me mixed up with someone else? This just keeps getting weirder and weirder- are you willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying?

 

I'm not singling anybody out, infering to any individual, you start taking things as an attack on you personally....I'm making very general broad statements. Like I said if it grates your cheese I am terribly sorry. Relax, it's cool, I don't think lowly of anyone around here, nor would I willfully misinterpret or attack anybody. If you feel you were singled out...it was toally unintnetioned....until the *Proud* comment. I can take lumps, but what you interprepted was your perception and not what I intended.

 

Beyond that...what can I say. Have a good evening, lifes cool

[Ernest Burden III]

This just keeps getting weirder and weirder- are you willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying?

 

It is interesting to see how a discussion that has ended up being about freelance vs. salaried help has stirred up so much emotion. I tried to stay to the topic, that of what is involved in finding and being good employee stock. But I'm not in control, so its gone where its gone. What it all says in total is that we have an industry that still has some identity issues. There are still not easily defined roles. In a way this is good. Its a boiling pot that in time will make a great soup. I'm hoping that over the next few years there will be better definition to the equally important roles of freelancers and studio monkeys. It is my opinion that our industry is in a period of transition, one that favors larger studios. That does not eliminate small studios or even the guy sitting in his attic typing away. Oh, that's me.

 

Perhaps we should all give some consideration to the advantages and downsides to the two camps. Neither is perfect, but each is ideal for some, and things will change for just about everybody. I have been a one-man studio for many years, but I've also run a small studio for a while and am now looking for a larger studio to work with or for. In my case that may no longer be possible, I think this year will answer that pretty much finally. But many of you should think beyond your comfort zone and consider what's possible.

 

Do you place more value on having your name on the work, or the work itself?

 

Do you have enough built-up experience that you are wondering how to pass some of it on?

 

Do you have balance in your life or have you let your profession take over?

[Charles Gaushell]

It is interesting to see how a discussion that has ended up being about freelance vs. salaried help has stirred up so much emotion.

 

I'm so confused.....LOL

 

Simply said, each to his own. It isn't that different than architectural firms. Both large and small can be successful as can one man shops. Each has advantages and disadvantages depending upon the person being poled.

 

Speaking for "large" (whatever that means in this industry) arch-viz houses, I'm sure if you took the companies with 10 or more employees you would find that they all operate differently - and sometimes vastly differently.....and you could get dozens of different opinions.

 

I have nothing against freelancers - more power to them. But from our business model, it is not whom we like to typically engage. But that isn't a knock on them, just the way we prefer to work and control quality and coordination. For other companies, freelancers work great.

 

The thing I'm still more interested in is finding individuals that can create 3d work that can be done in a reasonable amount of time - to meet budgets and deadlines. There is some beautiful work created by very talented artists, but they take way too long.........that is an entire discussion on its own.

 

Cheers!