Virgil Johnson Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Because several people have asked... I will start by saying that the field of visual impact studies is among if not the highest paying business in the world of visualization. And it is expanding. So how to do you break into it? Firstly do you have a very strong passion for drawing? Visual impact studies call for the highest and most precise level of model drawing. Nothing is ever guess work. So if you are an artist and draw to make things "look good" this is not the field for you. Visual impact studies call for a very high disciplined approach. Nothing goes into the model that is not precisely called for and defined and placed. Not a tree. Not a sign. Not the size of letters on the sign. Everything is within the 1/10,000 of an inch that AutoCAD provides Lighting. Not enough room here to tell you except to say you have to learn about film colors and finding the color palette in the photo. You need GI of course but nothing random about using it. You are confined by the photos your work with. (You do not get to change anything because you feel like it.) Documentation always. Your drawing is accompanied by volumes of documentation. Why you did what you did. Someone is likely to review your work in an effort to discredit you and your work. This is part of a legal process and by nature adversarial. Learning? Buy every book you can get and read it three times. Constantly study. Buy all the software you can and buy the good stuff. Buy the best computer, etc. Practice practice practice (I am 59 years old and have been drawing a long time and I still take a couple of hundred hours each year to learn and practice new techniques - the learning never stops.) TEACH! I taught modeling to engineers for years and did thousands of hours of teaching for various companies. You learn a lot and make contacts. --to break into teaching start with the local (community?) college and set up courses in the continuing (adult) contact local firms and ask about giving classes - do it cheap and get a reputation one thing leads to another ...breaking into visual impact studies Find people who are doing it. Contact engineering and architectural firms. Ask. Contact attorneys and find who specialized in this field. (You will be surprised how big a field it is.) Go down to the local (etc.)planning office and get copies of actual studies done. Attend public hearings where these presentations are made. Make practice drawings. Don't spent a lot of time doing great art work - get technical and present something real with documentation ---be sure to include a letter of methodology (you are not dealing with pretty pictures - you are creating hard nosed reality) Actually do some simple field work in your own back yard. (I will cover field work a bit in another thread when I answer a camera question.) NOTE!!! FIELD WORK IS HALF THE CHALLENGE TO VISUAL IMPACT STUDIES. THIS WILL BE THE HARDEST THING TO LEARN!!!! Those caps above are there with good reason. Virgil Johnson Virtually Real, Inc. Stone Ridge, NY (845-687-9776) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Motivational speaking--written form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Johnson Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Motivational speaking--written form? Yes big chuckle I guess you could say that. I got messages and calls from people who were really interested. And I like to encourage everyone. I have found great fun and success in this field and wish everyone the same. I will try to help anyone who would like to do this work. (and I do it for free!) virgil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 I want to see if you practice what you preach . Do you have a website? I tried googling virtually real, inc. stone ridge, new york. I didn't find anything. Buy all the software you can and buy the good stuff. Buy the best computer, etc. Practice practice practice (I am 59 years old and have been drawing a long time and I still take a couple of hundred hours each year to learn and practice new techniques Are you doing drawings or cg? I'm confused. Show us some 1/10,000 work. Documentation always. Your drawing is accompanied by volumes of documentation. Why you did what you did. Someone is likely to review your work in an effort to discredit you and your work. This is part of a legal process and by nature adversarial. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackb602 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Thanks for your posts. They're really interesting and useful. All of this information could make a great feature article for the site; would you consider writing one? Also, a specific question. Does lighting need to be accurate for visual impact studies as well? If so, what software do you use for this. I heard somewhere that Radiance was still the only renderer allowable for accurate lighting studies. Is there any truth to this? Jack p.s. I couldn't find your site either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexg Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I am confused here, what is Visual Impact Studies? Is it like the accurate photomontage thing? I have modelled precise 1/10,000 unit as in Acad in a number of projects before, and while doing that, I found out there are lots of errors in the dwg, and usually it is not me, but the architect's drawing that needs precision check. From elevation to section, plan to detail there always a couple of milimeter miss. That is against their own dwg, not yet cross checked with engineering and mechanical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Johnson Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 I want to see if you practice what you preach . Do you have a website? I tried googling virtually real, inc. stone ridge, new york. I didn't find anything. Are you doing drawings or cg? I'm confused. Show us some 1/10,000 work. Huh? Quickly before I go out the door. Why would I have a website? If you are a law firm specializing in environmental impact studies you already know who does what. In the very unlikely event that you don't you ask your colleagues or planning boards or other experts who already has a track record and has those little books already placed in the public domain. They are not exactly shopping for pizza in the yellow pages. If you to find out if Virtually Real, Inc. exists why not just look in the phone book. The 1/10,000 of an inch comes from as most people who draw know from AutoCAD which at the lowest setting draws to four decimal places. Brian Smith said somewhere in effect there are some things that ACAD does well and drawing accuracy is one of them I take advantage of that as much as possible. I make computer models to create visualizations of how things will look (from certain viewpoints) when built. The model also contains all the information as to camera placement and intervening and background objects. These models are often used to negotiate changes in projects to make them more acceptable. Examples of projects? Since I just did this for someone yesterday I will use the same. Many many cell tower projects. Along the NYS Thruway are towers I drew. More high profile stuff... The 100 year study of the Tilcon Mine at New City (NY) - just north of NYC. The proposed Hilton Garden Inn at Rye, NY The Town of Bedford (NY) water treatment plant. The Kingston Business Park (NY) I can give you hundreds - want more? virgil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Johnson Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 Thanks for your posts. They're really interesting and useful. All of this information could make a great feature article for the site; would you consider writing one? Also, a specific question. Does lighting need to be accurate for visual impact studies as well? If so, what software do you use for this. I heard somewhere that Radiance was still the only renderer allowable for accurate lighting studies. Is there any truth to this? Jack p.s. I couldn't find your site either. Hi Jack, Lighting is not too critical for some aspects of visual impact. Often pretty good is good enough since massing and intervening objects are more important. (I will try to get a posting up about that.) In some cases it is. For example. Often we had to draw cell phone panels to be placed on buildings. Owners want to know how it will change their buildings. To get accurate lighting color each viewpoint was photographed first for reference markers and then an actual panel was held to the correct height and azimuth and tilt and photographed. This panel photo now contained the correct color and lighting and was used as a template to color the model after it is drawn. Remember that each time of day and each day and each location ( radiosity exists in nature) provides different lighting. Also each type of film and different film temperatures and each camera (we always use two) provide differences. By having the actual photograph of the panel we had the photorealism that was needed for this type of impact study. Make sense? Want to find Virtually Real? use the phone book others here have v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Johnson Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 I am confused here, what is Visual Impact Studies? Is it like the accurate photomontage thing? I have modelled precise 1/10,000 unit as in Acad in a number of projects before, and while doing that, I found out there are lots of errors in the dwg, and usually it is not me, but the architect's drawing that needs precision check. From elevation to section, plan to detail there always a couple of milimeter miss. That is against their own dwg, not yet cross checked with engineering and mechanical. Visual impact in a nutshell is taking an existing site photo and creating a photo to show what it will look like changed. Sometimes this is very photorealistic. Sometimes not. You have to remember the goal is to make an accurate presentation as to scale and placement and rotation. In projects of size the process of drawing and redrawing with attendant changes can go on for months. This occupies a lot of time and money. An example. I drew the model for the proposed Hilton Garden Inn at Rye, NY. This is a very controversial site. Woodland/wetlant in the middle of a very affluent neighborhood just at the CT line. The opposition was incredible rich people = lawyers of their own. It took months of drawing drafts and changes until the presenting attorneys felt confident enough to make the visual impact study at a public hear. Each change brought in the developer and the banks and the accountants and the engineers and the architects and the surveyors and the visual impact people. Costly. Wearing. In the end we produced a building that looked pretty good. We ran out of time for more "pretty" work before the meeting and the developer was running out of patience and money. The accurate drawing was not so much in the structure itself but in the changes. Again were the cameras right. Was the building located correctly. What was the actual size of the new berm. The tree and shrubs to be planted were place where? and how big? Changes to the road and where is the sign now? All these changes are now written in stone once accepted by a planning board and must be adhered to. We could not control the drawing for the building. But we could control our drawing. Hope this answers your question. virgil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizzy Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Heya Virgil, I think Aaron just would like to see (as in images) what is different about your aproach and the aproach of many on this forum. Could you maybe show us some differences between visual impact and non-visual impact studies?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 This occupies a lot of time and money. Costly. Wearing. the developer was running out of patience and money. Would you say the standard of practice in your field is to bill hourly? Clients are willing and able to fund this level of detail? I have done some work that would easily fit into what you describe. I have always modeled and worked with accuracy in mind so I don't see the big differences. But modeling to the last decimal place with AutoCAD isn't going to be more than a boasting point when you have to work with files from the average architect and in the end the output compresses many inches on model into a single pixel. I wonder what the premium is from a very accurate architectural rendering from me and a VIS from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 So it's all bark and no bite ehh? Come on, post some examples. Just to comment on this whole 1/10,000 dillusion. The architects may want perfection and the developers may want it too but they'll never get it. Why, a little thing called building tolerance. That is exactly why 1/16" should be the limit for architectural plans. Any architects out there drawing plans at four decimal places are naive about how buildings are built. Out in the field, the contractors are laughing at them, and sometimes cursing. I'm sure the tolerance is tighter on product design, but not for architecture. Another thing regarding tolerance, how can one see four decimal places in a rendering that is rasterized? Are your VIS renderings done at a minimum resolution of 84,000 pixels wide? Why would I have a website? If you are a law firm specializing in environmental impact studies you already know who does what. In the very unlikely event that you don't you ask your colleagues or planning boards or other experts who already has a track record and has those little books already placed in the public domain. They are not exactly shopping for pizza in the yellow pages. If you to find out if Virtually Real, Inc. exists why not just look in the phone book. I did find your company in the phone book after the first google search - the only description was that you're a virtual reality software company. Website, why have one? That's easy, it's 2007. How can you be a software company and not have a website? That doesn't make sense. I make computer models to create visualizations of how things will look (from certain viewpoints) when built. The model also contains all the information as to camera placement and intervening and background objects. These models are often used to negotiate changes in projects to make them more acceptable. Yes, that's what we all do here too. That's why I'm interested in seeing your work, since you seem to have pretty high standards. I'm always interested in seeing quality work. That's what inspires me. Examples of projects? Since I just did this for someone yesterday I will use the same. Many many cell tower projects. Along the NYS Thruway are towers I drew. More high profile stuff... The 100 year study of the Tilcon Mine at New City (NY) - just north of NYC. The proposed Hilton Garden Inn at Rye, NY The Town of Bedford (NY) water treatment plant. The Kingston Business Park (NY) I can give you hundreds - want more I wouldn't get any business if I gave people a list of projects. Give us some pixels please. I'm not trying to discredit you. I just want to see how you implement your advice. Do you have a problem with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 We would all love to see some images! Also, if you are interested in hiring people you might want to post this on the jobs forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I agree I want to see what these images look like also, and I'm wondering what the typical budget is for VIS. From what you describe your not only spending tremendous amounts of time making sure the drawings are correct and modeling the structures, but you also spend lots of time setting up the cameras and photographing the site. Not only that but it sounds like you may even spend significant amounts of time meeting with lawyers and even in court, is that right? Give us some idea of how long it takes to complete a typical project from beginning to end and what the client might pay for the services. Like I’ve said I’ve done perspective matched images plenty of times but never to the level are you describing. To be honest it sounds way too technical for me and I can’t see how one person could do this job unless they had lots of time and resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Smith Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 So it's all bark and no bite ehh? Come on, post some examples. Just to comment on this whole 1/10,000 dillusion. The architects may want perfection and the developers may want it too but they'll never get it. Why, a little thing called building tolerance. That is exactly why 1/16" should be the limit for architectural plans. Any architects out there drawing plans at four decimal places are naive about how buildings are built. Out in the field, the contractors are laughing at them, and sometimes cursing. I'm sure the tolerance is tighter on product design, but not for architecture. I started drafting in the aerospace industry where 1/10,000 of an inch was typically. When i began a job as an architectural drafter, i naturally was inclined to use the same precision but my boss told me to never use more than 1/8th because as Aaron says, the contractors will either laugh or curse us and it makes us look stupid. It just ain't practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I went to a job site once where the steel had just been erected. It was supposed to be 30' on center. One set of columns were 30'-1 3/4" on center. That's a pretty large and unacceptable tolerance, but it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskin Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 the only time i need to deal with tolerances like that are when im doing something for my wife. She is also very expensive and demanding. i may have the required experience.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 the only time i need to deal with tolerances like that are when im doing something for my wife. She is also very expensive and demanding. i may have the required experience.. I think I speak for all the married folks out there: LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 the only time i need to deal with tolerances like that are when im doing something for my wife. She is also very expensive and demanding. i may have the required experience.... Amen brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I hope this thread doesn't read like piling on this guy, who as far as I can see just wants to share some ideas about a 'sister' industry to what most of us here do. But one other thought on the 1/10,000th accuracy thing. Yes, AutoCad is a double-precision database, but Max isn't. ACAD doesn't do very nice renderings on its own, and the programs that do--like Max--will dumb-down that uber-accuracy to a non-realworld units single-precision model. So how would you render images? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 It is a dog pile! But justified I believe... Images are the heart and soul of this industry, not talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Not to pile on... but worth mentioning perhaps is that 1/10,000 of an inch would be far, far, FAR less than a single rendered pixel in an image. Even if your image was 10,000 pixels wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexg Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 This VIS seems like what the guys at Hayes Davidson describes in Accurate http://www.hayesdavidson.com/html/publications/publications.html http://www.hayesdavidson.com/html/projects/purpose/planning.html Smoothe I think is doing similar thing with St.Mary's Axe building. We have been doing quite several projects like this, but when we asked if we are willing to guarantee 100% accuracy, we always say no. Not that I cannot model accurate 3d from the architect, but it's how the actual photo (before and after) is taken that has questionable accuracy. From my point of view, one will need 1 gps coordinate, down to the cm of the exact position of the camera, the lens / camera body / tripod height, and the exact angle of the camera target to be regarded as an accurate reference point submissible by law. A single shake by any vehicles / ground around the camera has been proven capable to alter the angle. During high wind, tall buildings also sways, disturbing the ref.points. If the photo is a stitched panoramic, then the stitching process itself has to be legally documented and will not allow any deviation of the individual photos. Is there a documented process that will stand against legal lawsuit in VIS ? Claiming 100% accuracy can be disastrous if facing against the best lawyers. If 100% is not possible, then what is the % that is considered passable under law? VIS might be expensive, but having hundreds of thousands $$$ of building lawsuit for tens or twenty grand $$ fee is very scary for me. Will our insurance cover for a mistake of 1/1000 inch difference on the photo match? Will it cover for 1/9000 inch? There has to be a legal threshold. Can we claim 99% as accurate enough? Maybe Jeff can help out, I have seen the render of St.Mary's Axe before, but haven't seen the actual photo of the finished building taken on the exact same coordinate. Is it 100% the same? Unless there is a legal documentation of procedures and has been passed on by law, it is too risky (legally) claiming 100% accurate. Attempting for at least 80% accuracy might be ok, but 100%? I know some lawyers that are just more than happy to challenge this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexg Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 One more thing. Do you need an expert witness signature when taking the pictures? To ensure the proper documentation process has been properly done? Can a documented movie of your process of drawing be submitted to court as evidence? or can you just hire an expert witness for their input? Sorry didn't see your other thread on the camera positioning. But my question still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mskin Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 i wouldn't call it a dogpile... just a lot of interest in the subject. where did Virgil go?!?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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