C4D and MAX

[adri]

Hi

 

Which combination is going to be the best to learn?

 

Archicad/C4D/Maxwell

 

or

 

Archicad/MAX/V-Ray

 

I know that C4D has better integration with Archicad which is my main tool at work as there is an exchange plugin and for the photo real aspect then I could always use the Maxwell Render plugin for C4D. But the industry standard appears to be MAX and V-Ray and one big advantage of MAX is that it comes with loads of good tutorials...

 

I just know that I'll be really pissed off if I spend loads of time learning one package and then have to switch to another!

 

Any opinions appreciated.

 

TIA

 

Adri

[AJLynn]

Define "best" - what exactly are you trying to do? Interiors, exteriors, animations, stills, photorealistic, illustration, lighting simulation...

 

You sound like an architect - do you want to invest a lot of time and commit to a substantial learning curve to do high-end work, or learn enough to get by and be able to show your designs? How much money do you want to spend?

[adri]

best for me means...

 

easiest to get good results.

 

ability to create both interiors and exteriors.

 

simple workflow from CAD to renderer. (very important as currently work is duplicated when the model goes from CAD to renderer, assigning materials, lights etc etc)

 

realism in lighting.

 

photo realism.

 

flythrough capabilities.

 

I'm not an architect but I work in an architectural practise and want to develop these skills to get more interesting work.

 

Thanks for the reply..

 

Adri

[AJLynn]

Well, Cinema will be easier for you to use than Max and will cost less. But Maxwell is not fast for interiors and it's almost impossible to use it for animation. Cinema does have finalRender2 and there are people writing a Vray plugin for it, and it's got its own render engine and Sketch&Toon.

 

What I'd say (and I could very well be wrong) would be to go with Cinema, not get into any 3rd party render plugin just yet, and choose one later.

[adri]

why do you say that Maxwell is almost impossible to use for animations? render times?

 

there's a guy at work using MAX and he imports the 3ds file saved from Archicad and then reapplies V-Ray materials and tweaks and tweaks. He creates stunning work but what bugs me is the amount of time required to create a scene. most of the work has already been done in Archicad and whilst I understand that you have to reapply materials/lighting for each rendering package it just seems a lot of work is being duplicated.

 

I've got MAX to render some reasonable scenes myself but it's the duplication of work that I hate.

 

Just as an aside, I've played with the Archicad plugin for Maxwell and it produces great images but Archicad doesn't have the modelling ability for really great images.

 

Thanks for the responses.

 

Adri

[AJLynn]

It's almost impossible because of render times. Since Maxwell doesn't provide any way of saving calculations from one frame to use on the next (like in Vray, fR2 and mental ray where there are ways to calculate lighting for a fraction of the frames and apply it to all) you need to render each frame. Even a few seconds of animation gets to be in the hundreds of frames, and we're talking about hours per frame. Maxer has done some animations, but he has Maxwell running on something like 80 PCs and does the animations during off-work hours over a period of weeks.

 

Anyway, sounds like what you've got are workflow issues. You need to take a serious look at how the import process is going to differ for the two packages, and how much effect that will have on you. Vray is great and pretty well suited to arch vis but it's not the end-all-be-all, and I've seen people do amazing work with almost all the programs out there - Max with scanline or mental ray, Lightscape (there's at least one guy still posting amazing stuff done in Lightscape), Maya, finalRender, Yafray, etc., etc.

 

Anyway, your call, just don't get caught up in the hype of any one program because everybody's needs are different and since yours don't include full Autodesk compatibility you've got some freedom.

[guitarboy]

I use archicad, max Vray combo, and i love. Max is harder to learn, but from what ive seen, is alot easier to produce good results when u compare it to cinema. i have friends that use the same combo as me and others that use the cinema combo u said, and they say it tkaes them alot longer to achieve the same results as what can be done with max vray.

 

as far as doubling ur workload when moving from cad to model, its all in how u set urself up. my work flow runs very smoothly for me with very little double up.

 

In the end its up to u, ive used both combos and much prefer and highly recommend the max vray combo, while it is harder to learn, there r heaps of tutorials and help out there for u, the programs r well backed by their companies, and all in all are very very good programs to use. Max is able to do everything ur wanting it to do, plus more most likely. best advice is try the trial versions of each and see which grabs you.

 

goodluck

[Frosty]

Anyway, your call, just don't get caught up in the hype of any one program because everybody's needs are different and since yours don't include full Autodesk compatibility you've got some freedom.

 

Now there are some words of wisdom if there ever were any.

[STRAT]

i use c4d, max (or viz) and autocad. i dont define one better than the next.

 

infact, compaired to max, c4d is a real joy to use, and given the skills of the user it can produce output as realistic as the next 3d s/w, only easier and faster imo.

 

yup, max/vray is the industry standard, not because it's better, but because of autodesk's foothold in the market has been so strong since anyone can remember.

 

and dont think a render plugin will make instant nice piccys. thats down to the user ultimately.

 

if you want vray, then why not use c4d and wait until the vray plugin is released? just my humble opinion of course.

[Tamir]

The combination of AC+Maxon Form (C4D) is unbeatable in the sense that it is a smooth transition of geometry.

C4D and 3DSMax differ from each other, mainly, in the GUI and not so much in features.

In any case once you have the AC+Maxon Form combo, the migration to any package is very easy, I.E. in to CAD via AC, and into 3D Via FBX in Maxon Form.

So you can “communicate” both 2D and 3D very easy.

As far as rendering is concerned, well, as mentioned before it is more about the artist then it is about the software, and no matter what you do it will take lot’sa time.

If you are interested in producing animated “fly-throughs” than Maya is your best choice for camera controls and movement in a time-line.

Importing in to Maya is easy when using FBX.

One more point worth mentioning, is that in AC, the UV’s are applied automatically to surfaces, and in cases where the geometry is simple, it’s doing a good job, and a major time saving one.

[adri]

C4D it is then.

 

One big issue though is learning resources. MAX ships with some very nice tutorials that can get you up and running quite quickly. Apart from Cineversity are there any really good tutorials for C4D?

 

Many thanks to all who have posted so far.

 

TIA

 

Adri

[AJLynn]

3dfluff.com (forums and training DVDs)

c4dcafe.com (forums, plugins that make your life easier and video tutorial downloads)

 

Also I think Lynda.com has some Cinema4D stuff. Several months back I figured out a way to get as much of their stuff as I wanted for free but I don't remember exactly how It involved registering for a free trial account (unlimited access for 2 or 3 days) and using a program that logs all URL requests on the computer, and going through a tutorial by quickly clicking through it. Then take the log of the URL grabber, filter it for only requests that contain .mov (I think it's .mov...) and copy-paste those URLs into a download manager program.

 

That's pretty sleazy so you didn't hear it from me

[Ernest Burden III]

'Best' never includes Maxwell.

[AJLynn]

Best use of vaporware in render engines?

[adri]

Why do you call Maxwell vapourware? I have a student license for it and it seems interesting software. I agree that for animations it isn't good but perhaps that's not what it's intended for.

 

It's also a reasonably new product, isn't it? So perhaps it needs some time to settle down and improve...

 

Whatever, I enjoyed the way it produced good renders straight out of Archicad using the plugin.

 

Adri

[AJLynn]

Though the software is now reasonably useful, for certain uses, they did run a masterful vaporware campaign back in 2005-part of 2006.

[Tamir]

There are, free wonderful Maxon Form tutorials, on the Graphisoft website

http://www.graphisoft.com/support/maxonform/. You can download files/tutorials, so you can practice at home. From experience I can say that these tutorials are great for achieving moderate expertise in modeling with Maxon Form. Bear in mind though, that these exercises are meant to aid in modeling techniques, and so there is no tutorials for rendering or animation with C4D on the Graphisoft website.

Good luck

[x911oz]

'Best' never includes Maxwell.

whatever

[deevee84]

i think i need to learn C4D... never really used a real rendering program before.. is it easy to learn though? i hope so !

[Tamir]

Just make sure when you buy it, that you understand the difference between Maxon Form and Cinema 4D. Maxon Form is about $500, and includes only the modeling part of Cinema 4D.

If you want to use C4D as you’re primary rendering engine you will have to buy the entire package (around $3000), while still obtaining from Graphisoft the plug-in's for AC10.

Other than that I find C4D to be a fairly easy modeler to master, even though I have no experience with its rendering engine (I use a proprietary tool for rendering).

[AJLynn]

You don't need a $3000 Cinema package. The basic package plus whatever render modules you want is probably enough (I recommend Advanced Render and Sketch&Toon, possibly finalRender2, and the rest of the modules are optional).