does architects like outsourcing viz jobs ?

[lyca]

hi,

 

I'm trying to do a little study, to find out how many % of the architects like to outsourcing viz jobs, and why ?

does little archis office outsource more than the big one ? and what are the tendency for the next years, do we (cg guys) have to found jobs in architecture office or can we stay independent ?

how will the evolution of technology influence the industry ?

 

i know there is no 100& answer, but if some of you has an idea or knows any studies about this, it would be very helpful.

 

cheers.

[pailhead]

It's simple, there aren't that many offices that feel comfortable enough to outsource 3d to India or China... yet. That will soon change, and i doubt that there will be a need for 3d viz people at all. For stuff that needs to be done ASAP, firms will have in-house people, and for stuff that needs to be done fast, cheap, and good, that will be outsourced to India and China.

 

We should probably all be looking for new careers.

[AJLynn]

It depends a lot on the firm, I think, and how they intend to use the 3D. At the firm I'm with now, we used to have a more or less full time 3D guy (who was a converted architect and did architect things when he wasn't doing 3D), but he left. For a couple years there were people who used Sketchup in the design process but nobody for renders, so that got outsourced some but there wasn't nearly as much rendered work done. Now I've started doing rendering but mostly for design process use and getting clients interested in design ideas. When I was with a much larger firm, we had a full-time guy and a bunch of other people with one or two relevant skills, and the full-time guy worked on 3D full-time and could pull in the other people when there was a really big project.

 

What I've learned is that for the high-end presentation stuff, where a client or community board or publication or whatever is involved, it often makes sense to use a consultant for 3D, because it's difficult for most firms to have somebody on staff who can do it. For design process work, it makes much more sense to keep it in-house and have people involved in the design doing the graphics, and not as much sense to have a consultant.

[ShaunDon]

I think Andrew's response is a lot closer to the mark. I can't speak for architects as well since I don't work in a firm, however we provide visualization services to a variety of different architecture offices located across the country, both big and small, so I do have some sense of what their requirements are.

 

When it comes to design visualization for in-house review, the best firms will have an in-house department to handle the work. But like Andrew said, when presenting projects to planning boards, especially on larger projects where there may be more public criticism, it's impossible to expect an in-house guy to carry the day on his own.

 

The problem is that the public's expectations of graphic presentations have gone through the roof. Everyone watches TV and movies, and is universally exposed to media that has a very, very high production value. High definition is becoming increasingly more common in homes, and people are simply much harder to wow as a result. Most firms would balk at the amount of overhead it would cost them to create an in-house team capable of delivering polished renderings.

 

I don't think this bodes particularly well for freelancers remaining independent. We're seeing a lot of companies that provide architecture and real estate graphics grow incredibly quickly -- look at where Neoscape and Spine (to name a few) are today compared to a few years back. It's very difficult (I don't ever like to say the word impossible) for a freelancer to work on his own and compete on that level.

 

As far as pailhead's rabid fear of outsourcing to cheaper economies (China, South America, etc.) -- I think that kind of thinking is way out of line and doesn't jive with the experience that I've had. Three years ago we had similar fears when several of our regular clients jumped ship to send their viz work to China and the Ukraine. While they never came back to us again, we did hear through the grapevine that in almost every case they stopped using overseas firms. The reduced cost didn't make up for the extra time that their employees had to spend marking up renderings and pointing out mistakes over and over again. And never underestimate the headaches caused when the designer can never have direct communication with the artist doing the work (re: the time difference).

 

Business is business, and serious companies looking for dependable work of the highest quality are going to pay a premium for it. While our work is almost always more expensive than people might think or want it to be, it still is a very small fraction of what the project is worth to our clients, and if city approval or sales figures ride on the success of the images they purchase, they would be insane to gamble over a few grand. They'd rather work with people who come to their office, look them in the eye and promise to deliver. And then follow through on that promise.

 

Shaun

[Devin Johnston]

My firm is about 120 people and I'm the only full time 3D guy, but we're looking for someone else to bring in because I have so much work I can't keep up. Before we decided to do that there was talk of outsourcing the extra work to China or India because we get the advertisements from them all the time whether we want them or not. In the end we decided against it because of a few things; first it's very inconvenient for our designers not to be able to just walk up and see how there images are progressing. Most of the time materials and even lighting changes until the last minute and I would think that an over seas company would have a hard time reacting to those kinds of changes in a timely manor. Secondly you have to deal with the time problem which Shaun has already mentioned, but it's very inconvenient when you can only talk with someone for a few hours during the business day. Third there is the big possibility of miscommunication due to language issues, not to mention the risk your taking by using some company half a world away. If they screw up your images they might not get another job from you but your project is on the line, what are you going to do then?

 

I think outsourcing especially to other countries for this kind of work is like playing Russian rulet, eventually you’re going to get burned if you play long enough. Is it worth loosing your project just to save a few hundred dollars?

[Joseph Petrino]

The arch/viz company I work for lost a very big client to outsourcing last summer. And other steady clients we are seeing less and less of. This may be due to a number of reasons I suppose, but outsourcing is a worry. All these jobs are exterior renders by the way and I think this is interesting.

 

Our interior design clients (I believe) won't go the overseas route. The nature of their client whims and other factors make finalizing anything impossible until they have you model and render the project at least 4 of 5 times. This includes numerous frantic phone calls("I said eggshell not beige!"), total redesign and last minute changes that need to be fast and perfect.

 

This work flow won't ever work overseas (I hope).

[ericbarlow21]

I started out doing freelance and one day I got the idea to ask companies about an in-house position and the first company I went to hired me that day...

 

Since I have been here, this particular company is looking to expand its graphics department. I know here that they do not like to outsource even to companies down the street for many reasons.

 

That is my small amount of experience!

[pailhead]

What exactly makes you think that someone who is willing to work for peanuts, is not willing to stay up really late, or even switch his entire working schedual to the late evening/early morning hours to compensate for the time difference?

 

Also there are a lot of chinese and indians out there whos english is better than most americans speak, it's easy to find one person to coordinate a whole team who will work for 1/20 of your average wage.

[Chad Warner]

Pailhead-

 

You must have some experience with outsourcing to be so vocal about it. Care to share?

[Devin Johnston]

What exactly makes you think that someone who is willing to work for peanuts, is not willing to stay up really late, or even switch his entire working schedual to the late evening/early morning hours to compensate for the time difference?

 

Also there are a lot of chinese and indians out there whos english is better than most americans speak, it's easy to find one person to coordinate a whole team who will work for 1/20 of your average wage.

 

 

Yes it's called slave labor and it's not something I'm a big supporter of.

[BrianKitts]

Keep in mind the original question on this thread was only on the idea of outsourcing not specific to overseas or local.... just the idea of outsourcing. And the trend I've noticed is small firms will outsource more just because they don't have the capability. As more kids come out of college with viz skills more and more firms are starting to pick it up in house. And larger firms who have the budget can actually hold a specific department for viz, hire quality artists and not have to outsource. I'm not sure if "do they like to outsource" is really a valid question. You do it if you have to, and you look around till you find a firm you like working with. Regardless of where they are located.

 

Yes it's called slave labor and it's not something I'm a big supporter of.

 

I've had a few late night discussions (normally induced by alcohol) over the concept of sweat shops and "slave labor." The thing is this, to the people who have to work in those conditions, they don't do it to undercut the market, they do it because it's a job. Walk into a sweatshop and ask someone what a sweatshop is and they won't understand.... to them it's just a job. And in most cases although the job sucks it's a paycheck albeit a small one, as opposed to having no job at all.

 

So I'm sitting here wondering if this applies to architectural offices overseas that undercut the market, since it does require a known skill to preform these services it makes it slightly different than a shoe shop. It's not really slave labor if someone is choosing to do the job, it's slave labor if they have no other choice. These firms will probably always exist, but architects will hopefully chose not to use them based on the fact that it's easier to communicate with someone in your own language and time zone. Yes some companies overseas will transcend that barrier.... but I don't see it killing the market anytime in the near future.

 

(I'm not condoning the existence of under-payed workers in cheaper markets I'm just putting out commentary of it's existence)

[Sawyer]

Yes it's called slave labor and it's not something I'm a big supporter of.

 

I think that perception about these places being sweat shops may be really off base. I think that there are many horrible sweat shops in the world but I also know that in some place in the world making $20-50 per day is a good living.

It may be worth asking some of our overseas counterparts what their living expenses are. I really think its an oversimplification of a very complex situation if people are assuming that if you don't charge US rates you must be living in a substandard situation. I think the reality is there are countries where you can make much less than you make here but have a higher profit margin.

[delco]

Brian's remarks hit some good points. I think that more of the younger college grads' skills offer up more 3D possibilities in firms so there is the opportunity for more in-house viz work. As Andrew mentioned earlier much in-house work is geared toward design process not necessarily highly finished renderings which often required bigger complex jobs which have bigger budgets for such things. As 3D continues to be incorporated into CAD packages in the future more I'm sure it will eventually be used more in day-to-day work not just finished renderings and will thus likely be more prevalent in in-house operations.