RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 How is everyone dealing with this issue? We so frequently get offers for way below market value for imagry out of the uk, China, India ect. These are simply not market value offers and I see it as trying to take the american professional market out. I tell everyone not to entertain ANY of these offers due to potential problems, language barriers, ect. So how is everyone "selling" clients on using those of us charging fair market value when there are such rediculous offers in countries with a much worse economy so that they charge less? I'm getting frustrated at all of this. It's the same type of mentality that allows slave labor for the clothing industry as it's cheaper to pay a worker $10 a week than fair market value. How can this destructive force be stopped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You are not going to stop overseas competition. The internet has largely leveled the playing field. Its a permanent fact of life. If you cannot compete on cost compete on service or compete on artistry. In my case, I decided to compete by developing an artistic style that wasn't like what everybody else was offering. And by offering clients personal attention and the benefit of my decades of rendering and all that I've learned along the way. That's what I have. If it isn't enough I will be put out of business. I will find something else to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I'm getting frustrated at all of this. It's the same type of mentality that allows slave labor for the clothing industry as it's cheaper to pay a worker $10 a week than fair market value. How can this destructive force be stopped? I would disagree with this statement very heavily. Even if the 'overseas' guys paid for all of the legit software (I dont know what percentage use pirate/legit) they could still undercut the market in the states very easily. The staff there are no more underpaid than staff in the states and they have a much stronger work ethic. Their currency is worth less, thats all. They are obeying market forces, something that America advocates, right? Or should those slanty-eyed foreigners not get ideas above their station? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 well, I dont suspect there would be many people from the UK who are cheeper then the US, the UK £ is worth double that of the US $ at the moment. As for the other places of the world that charge less than the US - there cost of living is alot less than that of the US, so they charge acordingly.. How can this destructive force be stopped? 1st of all, I think that a bit of an overreaction, and without going into politics and economy lessons...if you cant beat them join them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 One thing that I have found really frustrating is that so many of the fliers that come from other countries put prices on them. "$200-$300 for a rendering" an architect may not use them may not even realise that the company is in India but then those prices stick in their head. I have talked with potential clients who hear what I charge and say that they get ads for work much cheaper. And yes $800-$2000 is a huge differance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 I dont think it's an overraction. $150 for 40 hours work isn't market value. Period. You cant beat that. And at $600 per month of work, you cant join it either. That's barely rent here in the US. And yes, the pound > dollar...that's not what I was saying. But we get offers all the time from the uk and european countries severly undercutting prices...like $300-400 per full blown project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Well the point is, if the other company can offer it for that price, that IS market value. You have become expensive. But you cant honestly say you didnt see it coming? You have to offer something different, make your product worth paying more than the competition. Or relocate to East Asia...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 "And yes, the pound > dollar...that's not what I was saying. But we get offers all the time from the uk and european countries severly undercutting prices...like $300-400 per full blown project" well European countries maybe (I get alot from Russa, in Asia I belive) but from the UK, not that price. Im sure a few people might want to linch me for saying this....but, America and the UK have done very well from cheep labour over the years, now that it turns round and bites us, well thats just unfortunate. we are just goint to have to adapt. Personaly, Im amazed that anyone from the US (or the UK) would ever want to outsoarce work to save a few $£1000s. I mean, alot of these jobs are worth millions to the client, why try a fave a few ££$$ on getting youre work done in a place with a different time zone and a different language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Well the point is, if the other company can offer it for that price, that IS market value. You have become expensive. I do not agree. We haven't become expensive. We provide a valuable, professional service. They simply can undercut us because their economy is far inferior and $150 US buys a LOT more there than here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Or relocate to East Asia...... Ah the new American Dream to be able to afford to move to another country where you can earn LESS but make MORE money. This is what I fear. Other countries can do it better you can make less money but earn more. You could have a better standard of living somewhere else by making less money. I am not joking India may really be onto something - a middle class which India really needs to stablise its country - would make less money than anyone does here. But they would have greater profits and that is the key to a successful business. Not making more money but making more profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I do not agree. We haven't become expensive. We provide a valuable, professional service. They simply can undercut us because their economy is far inferior and $150 US buys a LOT more there than here. Not exactally true. An apples to apples comparison would show us as expensive. Yes its a good service and yes it has value and yes it is a lot harder to pay US salaries than a salary in another counrty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I do not agree. We haven't become expensive. We provide a valuable, professional service. They simply can undercut us because their economy is far inferior and $150 US buys a LOT more there than here. The key words are "market value". Believe me, you HAVE become expensive. Simple economics: there is no closed market on the internet. Bush aint gonna send in the troops to protect the price of renderings. There are loads of clients who dont feel comfortable dealing with someone on the other side of the world in the closing stages of a big project. You'll just have to find them. Or make like Ernest and change the product. Either way, thats what business is all about, you have to be fluid and adaptable to remain viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Cool. This is the type of info I'm looking for....how everyone is dealing with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Last night I finished a rendering from a client that had used overseas talent. I had an impossible deadline, bad source drawings and I worked all night for 4 days. I was on the phone to the client constantly I sent e-mails by the minute to update the image I managed my renders in the middle of night waking up to check on it and make changes. I set up a render farm account and when it failed I had a back up. They got the drawings on time for the meeting but I worked my ass off. The client got awsome customer service. They will use me again - believe me. But I kept thinking when I saw how much I was making that they could be paying 1/20 my price. That is good motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Cool. This is the type of info I'm looking for....how everyone is dealing with it. Sarcasm perchance? I am not in the position alot of renderers find themselves in. I work fulltime in an architecture practice and i have a few steady freelance clients. I also have a commission based part-timer who goes out and hunts for work for me. If the work is drying up, I havnt noticed. I am going in Ernests direction though, and developing a style. Its an eighties monochrome tron look. Its not ready to roll out yet, but I havnt seen anyone else doing it, so I am hopefull for the future. Other than that, I think the future-proof technology is BIM based renderings combined with an artistic eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesTaylor Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Bush aint gonna send in the troops to protect the price of renderings. Don't bet against it... its as good as any other reason he'll have!!! And we might actually see a benifit from it for change if he did!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Sarcasm perchance? I am not in the position alot of renderers find themselves in. I work fulltime in an architecture practice and i have a few steady freelance clients. I also have a commission based part-timer who goes out and hunts for work for me. If the work is drying up, I havnt noticed. I am going in Ernests direction though, and developing a style. Its an eighties monochrome tron look. Its not ready to roll out yet, but I havnt seen anyone else doing it, so I am hopefull for the future. Other than that, I think the future-proof technology is BIM based renderings combined with an artistic eye. Nope, no sarcasm. Seeing that people are just dealing with it and trying to develop other ways to win buisiness is the info I wanted. We haven't lost any clients to this yet...it's just been happening more and more lately that we hear of it. We're pretty busy too (adding another position currently)...but I like the roll we're on and down want a downward spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Nice one. Glad business is good. In case you hadnt noticed, I get a bit ruffled when people complain about "unfair foreign competition". Ive spent time in 3rd world countries, studied a bit of international economics, written thesis on American foreign policy and a Im bit anti-Bush. Apologies if I get a bit outspoken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 Nice one. Glad business is good. In case you hadnt noticed, I get a bit ruffled when people complain about "unfair foreign competition". Ive spent time in 3rd world countries, studied a bit of international economics, written thesis on American foreign policy and a Im bit anti-Bush. Apologies if I get a bit outspoken. Yeah, I noticed. It's fine. We're basically all anti-Bush. Or should be at least. But lets not go there...ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfienoakes Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Overseas undercutting goes on in all businesses. As an analogy, at the moment, I have had my kitchen floor tiled, using a good quality travertine. Now, my neighbour is in the business, so did me a good price on it. I could have got some really cheap travertine off of the internet thou. Now my neighbour tells me that this is Ok.. but the quality varies greatly.. it maybe cheap, but may have a lot of imperfections in it.. Also, after a while, some of the cheaper grades start to actually "dissolve" and you end up with a pitted surface.. some of the tiles turn up and aren't flat, so you end up with a rippled floor.. The pallets turn up, and half the tiles are cracked, so you have to speak to the supplier and get replacements.. A lot of the cheaper grades are very thin, and crack easily... Or.. I could use my neighbour. Who is local, gets me some cracking samples, and speaks the same language as me. When I phone him he is there, on the phone, in the same country...Easy to deal with.. So this was my choice. What I am getting at, is yes, you may find someone who promises a great service for a cheap price, only to find you have been mislead somewhat by the lure of the extra saving.. and once everything is considered, that saving doesn't add up to a great deal Sometimes we all take a chance on "buying" a product / service.. and sometimes we are pleasantly surprised.. but not always.. in fact the saying "you get what you pay for" is pretty true.. And I am talking about the whole experience of buying whatever you buy.. I agree that we need to build solid client bases, and develop our own products, whilst keeping an eye on the competition, as thats what business is.. competition.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 My situation is identical to Tommy L's and I feel that I'm pretty well insolated from these third worlders at this point in time. However the mentality in the US seems to be to get the job done as cheaply as possible regardless of the consequences, hence the overused practice of outsourcing. I feel that at some point there is going to be a backlash, the question is when and how much damage will have been caused by the time people realize this practice isn't good for the working people of this country. If you take outsourcing to the extreme why would any company want to work within the US, it's always going to be cheaper to relocate to a less developed country and use the native labor. My solution would be to impose taxes on any country outside of the US to level the playing field, that way it wouldn’t matter where they were from or how bad their economy was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 My solution would be to impose taxes on any country outside of the US to level the playing field, that way it wouldn’t matter where they were from or how bad their economy was. hmmmm, I think that idea is madness...not to mention extreamly unfair against any contry that the US desides to impose the "tax" apon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You'll forgive me but from what I understand most of the goods that are exported from the US have taxes imposed on them as they are imported into other countries. This is usually done to protect X countries native products from unfair competition. In contrast most of the products that are imported into the US from China or Japan for example have very few if no taxes imposed on them and therefore they are able to produce products that are equal in quality or sometimes even better while keeping their costs low and driving native companies out of business because they can't compete, the same thing is happening here. I'm all for free trade but it has to be equal for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da-rc Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You can always rely on americans to propose protectionism A tax would need to be something like 300% to achieve parity in some cases! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 You'll forgive me but from what I understand most of the goods that are exported from the US have taxes imposed on them as they are imported into other countries. This is usually done to protect X countries native products from unfair competition. In contrast most of the products that are imported into the US from China or Japan for example have very few if no taxes imposed on them and therefore they are able to produce products that are equal in quality or sometimes even better while keeping their costs low and driving native companies out of business because they can't compete, the same thing is happening here. I'm all for free trade but it has to be equal for everyone. Seems to me youre talking about something you have no understanding of whatsoever. Do some reading on the French protecting their farmers. Then about african farming industry. Grossly unfair, same thing, different scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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