Dealing with oversea's undercutting...

[Sawyer]

I'm all for free trade but it has to be equal for everyone.

 

 

Don't forget about domestic subsidies for our products. Do you think a head of lettuce actually costs $.50?

And the US is just as good as anyone with screwing over other economies. Just a few weeks ago there were mass suicides in S Korea to protest a deal the Korean government was making with the US to import US rice cheaper than Korean. Great for US farmers horrible for Korean.

 

 

Hell we could all on the west coast undercut NY prices by a huge margine. Maybe all of this will come to an end soon with oil reserves dropping it may become impossible (it may already be unwiie) to import food. That means no fruit in winter, few veggies, no mangos and very few people would eat fish. Buy everything local I mean grown/made within 100 miles.

[Ernest Burden III]

How many of us, who are westerners, are marketing in Asia? There are HUGE sums of money being invested in architecture in places like China, India, Malaysia etc. If you have a quality product, whether that's because of your style, your ability to understand the client's needs, whatever, then why not try to pick up some new markets instead of worrying about others taking over yours? We want our clients in the US, Canada and Europe to understand why paying more for our services is worthwhile. Why wouldn't the same logic work for clients 'overseas'? They aren't fools.

 

I've rendered projects all over China, some in Europe and other countries (though I don't think any, ever in the southern hemisphere) but always for American clients, plus a few from Europe. Maybe if I made an effort to get my company's work known in Asia I could pick up new clients who see value in what I offer, regardless of the cost.

 

By the way, I've worked my entire career in probably the most expensive market for rendering--New York. First the lower-cost competition was Brooklyn, then New Jersey, then the fly-over states. Now its India, China, Brazil. Nothing new to me.

[RyanSpaulding]

Well, whatever it is, I feel it's important to help our own country and keep jobs for ourselves...not outsource to China and India. In my opinion, it is morally correct if you're operating within the US to look for US-based help. I definitely frown upon companies that outsource overseas when there are many many americans looking for work too...just to save a little bit of cash.

 

That's just my opinion though.

[Sawyer]

I definitely frown upon companies that outsource overseas when there are many many americans looking for work too...just to save a little bit of cash.

 

That's just my opinion though.

 

How far have you taken this though? Where is your computer made? Your monitor? Would you buy a cheaper computer regardless of it's origin (assuming the quality is the same)? Would you loose work because you buy a more expensive computer (or whatever) to a company that keeps its infestructure low buy buying foreign made computers?

Do you comparison shop? For electronics, cars, veggies, clothes?

 

As a business owner I try to buy good quality products but price is very important. And at times it hurts me when I learn that a potential client is taking their business to Mombai I don't turn around and throw out my Sony screen. I can't. I can't afford to.

[Ernest Burden III]

Well, whatever it is, I feel it's important to help our own country and keep jobs for ourselves...not outsource to China and India.

 

When I hire freelancers to help I usually do look to Americans first, for reasons of patriotism. When I do hire people from abroad I pay about what I would pay an American. Not that I use a lot of freelancers, because I don't.

 

Two final points. First, everyone has a right to compete for work. Second, let's not forget that this board is international. We see professionals here from every continent except Antarctica (though a certain somebody claims to be there...Randy). Being open to a broader view of our industry is to our advantage. Everyone does not think the same and that's good.

 

Discussing how to compete in a global marketplace is a valuable topic, but please try to avoid 'us vs them' in your posts.

[Vince Paske]

Your best bet is to imbue your client with the sense that no one can provide the same level of quality and service as you can, but not be cocky about it. I think there are a lot clients who are less likely to gamble on overseas services if they have renderer that has a record of doing great work and they get a "known" product, or something better every time. Competition, no matter where it comes from forces everyone to push their abilities.

 

On a side note I got a call from someone at work asking if I needed to outsource any cad work. It was obvious he was from india - accent, bad connection....and after I said no, we are handling our work just fine, the guys said "but we have no work.....and" - -click, the line goes dead. I thought to myself, "wow, desperate and not very reliable"

[RyanSpaulding]

It's not us vs them to me at all...I just want to help a fellow struggling amercian more than other countries. It's good for our economy.

 

I'm sure it's the same for people in the UK, China, ect. Basically, we're seeing a lot of industries go overseas such as the major movement of tech support to places like India. That is a LOT of lost jobs for our economy. No other country outsources to the US like we outsource. Thats a lot of lost jobs and lost revenue. That's just not good IMO.

 

So by supporting American artists for arch jobs IN america, I'm just trying to help stray from the idea that outsourcing to China/India ect is the "way to go"...not that I'm personally in the position to hire anyone anyways (I'm a worker bee). I'm sure the 3d artists in say...Dubai or China wouldn't like it if American's started popping up and were undercutting _them_ on their local projects. Those artists need those jobs. Dubai needs those jobs.

[rotten42]

How is everyone dealing with this issue? We so frequently get offers for way below market value for imagry out of the uk, China, India ect.

 

These are simply not market value offers and I see it as trying to take the american professional market out. I tell everyone not to entertain ANY of these offers due to potential problems, language barriers, ect.

 

So how is everyone "selling" clients on using those of us charging fair market value when there are such rediculous offers in countries with a much worse economy so that they charge less?

 

I'm getting frustrated at all of this. It's the same type of mentality that allows slave labor for the clothing industry as it's cheaper to pay a worker $10 a week than fair market value. How can this destructive force be stopped?

 

 

 

I had a long time corporate client come to me saying that I was over priced and that they found someone who could do a render for less than half. They told me that this was a "courtesy" call. Courtesy my ass!!

 

 

 

I told them that I charge a fair price and I won't undercut the system. I told them that there was no way I could support my business at the prices they wanted. The client is an office Furniture dealership. I tried to relate to them in their own terms what under-cutting does to the market as it happens to them too. The CFO I was talking to said it wasn't valid reasoning because they sell something with a hard cost (chairs, furniture) as opposed to me selling pictures. I was so taken back It took me a bit to spit out my objections. Instead I finished by asking him how he puts a value on his employees seeing as they aren't a "hard cost" either. I thanked him for his previous business and wished him luck going forward.

 

 

I explained my regret that I would not be doing business with him anymore. That's where he started to back track. I then ended the phone call. I fully expect at sometime he will call me again for a render. The thing is if it happens, my price will go up.

 

 

Life's too short to deal with pr*ck's like this.

[kippu]

nice reading this thread

[Sawyer]

nice reading this thread

 

Kippu - what are your thoughts? You are part of the community here. We hear a lot from the so called "western" representatives What do people from other parts of the world think?

[kippu]

i wont use the word "undercutting " as it has been already pointed out ... the prices that the people from this part charge are good enough to make a good living out of it ..... internet is a good tool , it has allowed to further our clientele but if you think that your clients will dry up and there wont be work ...well i have never heard of a scenario like that till now ....

 

as far as americans loosing jobs because of indian or chinese companies , as far as i see it , its globalization ... we loose some...some western company patented cotton...and our farmers lost a lot of money due to that and are dying .....call centers are set up and americans are loosing jobs.....some people are profiting with globalization and some not so...we will have to just adjust ourselves to fit into this new world

 

thats about it

[Virgil Johnson]

Ernest Burden III had it all on the first page.

 

Just build a better mousetrap.

 

It is not the internet that is at play here.

 

It is von Hyak's free market economy theory that gave everyone competition

 

-and cheap and plentiful goods in all of the world that participates in a free market.

 

One commodity that is always in demand is a better product.

You have to figure out what makes a better product.

 

I think it is interesting that Dell Corp. offers a more costly (Gold) tech support to business - that offers North American support.

 

Might be the better mousetrap?

 

 

Virgil

[3DEXTRUDE]

Well, im sorry but working 4 days and 4 nights to get a render for 150 dollars is not what anyone in this field want to do.

 

First, the best thing for you to do, is to get into a company where they pay you a " slalary" and not some fruitcake per project job that pays under 200 bucks for 1 render...I would not do a pencil rendering for a 150 dollar project in 4 days...

 

The market is getting really bad out there with oversea prices, but that does not mean you can't get into something reasonable. India, asia and other countries are doing this because they know how big is the income for them and how low it is in america when they ask for a 150 dollar render...

 

It does not matter what they use pirated software or whatever, the fact stays that they are getting more jobs than probably you. That is why its worth to get into a company with a salary position instead of being a freelancer.

 

This way you get your money and you don't have to worry about what other people ask for their service...In america it is against the law to fire you because they found someone in india to do work. Ones you are hired, and you get slalary i doubt anyone would let you go because some chip-monk in other countries are offering cheaper service...

 

In a company they can talk to you directly and communicate as they please, overseas its a little different because you are not sitting in their office. So they have to get emails and updates that way...

 

I think 3D became very cheap and the problem with that is, its that most firms do not know how much work goes into a project and how many hours people work on a render. They only care about the finished result. If you are up 4 nights and 4 days and get 200 bucks, i suggest you rethink you rethink your service to any company, because you are lowering everyone else. Since i got a salary job now, i dont have to worry about these issues, but it would be really difficult to make a living with these kinds of service. You wouldnt even be able to support yourself in the USA for about 800 bucks a month..lol..

 

I think that 3D should be valued more and the services from over seas are rediculously under the prices that we would usually charge. You are better off working as a server in a restaurant if thats the case, because you make a lot more tips and bring home more money in a week than you would make doing freelancing when looking at foreing countries...

 

Better yet, be a bar tender and you make a lot more in a night than the guy who mentioned staying up 4 days and working on a clients project...

 

I could not do that myself knowing that i am getting way underpaid...I would probably give him a marker rendering by grabbing a few kids in walmart and let them paint him a hous with pretty windows.

 

Jee..

[4DM]

This is an interesting topic, and as always there are 2 sides to the argument.

 

Naturally those in developed countries quite understandably see a threat from outsourcing to practitioners in developing economies. And if the movement to outsourcing were taken to extremes, domestic companies would be shooting themselves in the foot, as their home market, freshly unemployed, would not be able to purchase the goods and services the companies are trying to sell at 'first world' prices for 'first world' profits. So those companies who do outsource are only able to because others don't. It's classic defector strategy.

 

There are obviously jobs which can never be outsourced overseas: cleaners, nurses, teachers, childcare workers, police, firefighters and ambulance drivers etc.. they tend to be the essential "key workers" whose jobs will always be safe. But these jobs, though essential, do not tend to be particularly well paid.

 

Where companies might make some really big savings would be to outsource their boards of directors to Mumbai, and I'd love to see the day, but I won't hold my breath..

 

On the other hand, no decent person wants to continue a situation of historical inequality between the developed world and developing world - so outsourcing of services, in addition to manufacturing jobs, is helping to encourage middle class expansion and increased prosperity in certain economies that are able to tap into this market. That must be good for the global economy as a whole, if not for some of the individual trades or practitioners who are adversely affected by it.

 

However, this is not, of course, the rationale behind it - it's purely to cut costs and increase profits, and today's winners may well be tomorrow's losers. Capitalism nowadays is completely footloose - it has no loyalties to countries or peoples. Fifty years from now, and call centres, even archviz perhaps, may well have moved on to Nigeria or Zimbabwe - China and India having become too uncompetitive. Manufacturing? Who knows. An aquaintance of mine who works in industry once told me if you want to know where the next cheap country is to get your manufacturing done - follow the shoe trade. At the time he was looking into Vietnam for some product manufacturing deals....

 

The previous advice on countermeasures is sound though. Improve your product, and your service. Don't join in the rush to the bottom - unless your work is really poor, and if it is, perhaps you'd be better off re-training for something else.

 

Adding value by speaking the same idiomatic language, being in the same time-zone, offering a personal, reliable, dependable service, and obviously the highest quality product that your local market requires, should protect you from the worst ravages of footloose capitalism.

 

We in the West have enjoyed years of low inflation=low interest rates as a result of cheap foreign imports, at the expense of domestic manufacturing jobs. This has certainly been unfair to many workers, now unemployed or in McJobs. But what will happen when the price of those imports increases due to the maturing of those developing world economies? We only have one planet - eventually there will be no "frontier", beyond which cheap labour can be hired and cheaper goods manufactured. Then what? Combined with dwindling oil, water and other resources, they will make for interesting times....

 

Cheers,

 

D.

[Nic H]

Good topic.

 

We often find our office competing directly with various companies that have their main workforce in China and management/job procurement in Australia.

 

These companies can produce work very quickly and for very competitive prices however the quality is generally low (comparitive to the general Australian market) This is fine for alot of clients, but the better known and respected developers and architects want a better product and are driven by high quality. This in the same market we try to aim for (i.e bigger jobs - more money)

 

That said I have seen some really excellent work from high end Chinese companies, but not at all in the Australian market, I suspect these are small high quality boutique offices that work within China and with overseas develpopers based in China.

 

We have been getting to redo jobs initially done by these companies due to communication errors, 'lack of style', and inflexible workflows, feedback misunderstandings on their part. Once bitten twice shy really. Which is a good thing for my office, we really try to impress on these jobs to retain the client who wont mind paying more for a quality product and flexible feedback arrangement.

 

Im my mind the more competition the better, it only serves to force people to find niches to keep going and locate their own market territory. Trying to protect your market will eventually backfire I think, and as such I wouldnt be trying it.

 

If the time arises and I need a suite of specific furniture made ill outsource the modelling to somehwhere cheaper rather than do it myself. If the quality is better than locally and cheaper then why not. Its the upside of globablization, allows everyone to profit.

[pailhead]

I do not agree. We haven't become expensive. We provide a valuable, professional service. They simply can undercut us because their economy is far inferior and $150 US buys a LOT more there than here.

 

 

Not only that. You have to pay $$$$ for every licence, for every software that you use. You have to spend $$$ on rent, and $$ on food while you're rendering those tests and experimenting with materials.

Someone overseas can download warez software, and save $$$$, someone can also download those evermotion interior and exterior scenes and strip them of all the settings and materials, for free...

[thinice]

I guess I am on of these "overseas" people.

 

Actually I would be ecstatic if there are actually "overseas" people who can do the same job as what I am doing at half the price and easy to deal with.

 

That way, I can just outsource all my work to them. All I need is to service the clients and make 50% of the fees. I wouldn't need to pay for assistants and expensive equipment as well as not to worry about those 3.am working hours.

 

In the same way, if your client is willing to pay double for what I normally charge, why don't you pass the work to me and we split the fee. That way I can just concentrate on my work and not having to do like a million little things at any one time.

 

See, just have to think outside the box a bit....

[pailhead]

That's the same point i wanted to make.

 

Coming from a developing country myself, i might have more insight into these things, as well as the experience on the production end as compared to yours on the client end.

 

First of, let me tell you that language or communication is becoming less and less of a barrier, if it can still be considered a barrier. You'll be amazed by the amount of people that speak English very well, if not good enough to pass as native speakers when they write emails, then certainly good enough to conduct business. Trust me, there are lots of people who are fluent with the language, know all the terms and do outstanding work, just as you or even better.

Next item, phone lines, reliable connections, different time zones. I strongly believe that these aren't issues to be concerned about. You can set up a skype account with a phone number with an US area code of your liking, so whenever someone dials the number, skype will ring on the computer at your end. I've seen offices here in the US doing similar things, and even at large distances i don't see why would this be any less reliable than using a cell phone somewhere in the US.

As far as the time difference is concerned, if someone is willing to do a rendering for 150 bucks, what makes you think that he isn't willing to substitute day for night, and sync with your timezone, for 300 bucks? Would you be willing to work pm to am instead of am to pm for triple your salary? Well i know a lot of people who would. I made myself available at any time when i was engaged into projects. This is no obstacle.

 

I think that none of your arguments are well founded. Ernest, you've been around for a while and you've built yourself a name and a reputation and that's what sells your renderings. The quality can't get any better than what you're doing, but can definitely be achieved and reproduced, if not surpassed. I doubt that you would have had as much work if you'd been around for only 5-10 years.

 

I would really like to discuss what is it exactly that makes oversea people so competitive. I know a few of the causes, but there are still things that escape me. And of course, there is the ethics issue...

 

 

People overseas came to realize that you don't need BOXX $10k workstations to produce high end renderings. A very cheap dual core cpu can be as fast than a high-end workstation 2-3 years old, if assembled by someone who knows a thing or two about hardware. They save a lot of money when they buy a cheap gaming video card instead of a Quadro if they learn how to optimize their models. They know that the things that see in dell, xp, alienware, boxx catalogues can be obtained a lot cheaper if they build them themselves.

 

I have to admit that I'm always confused when i visit the hardware section on this forum, and when i see people who are obviously new to the whole archviz thing, making inquiries about buying 8core rigs, quadro SLIs and stuff like that. I even remember a thread that was about setting an 8 socket rig for maxwell.

Since i think that a lot of these "high-end" rigs are pretty much a waste of money when it comes to arch-viz, i always look at profiles of people who make such inquires to see what is it that they do so they can afford things like these and make them profitable. I might even say that i find poor quality work in majority of these cases. People who just started working, who work with ridiculously un-optimized models, insane render settings, ect.

 

It's very easy to compete with people and companies such as these. But then i gather, that you can do this no matter where you are. If you're in the US you can get higher profit margins, if you're in an undeveloped country, you can get a competitive price.

 

 

The cost of living is a thing of debate. Rent is high in the US, but it's certainly higher if you live in NYC, or Wyoming. Belgrade, Serbia where i come from, i think that rent might be comparable to Wyoming. India and China are probably a lot cheaper.

Gas on the other hand is a lot more expensive than here in the US, even California Internet can be considered more expensive when comparing bang for the buck. Computers are vastly more expensive, a dell 24" screen costs twice as much, while the most common components cost at least 30% more or whatever the euro is compared to the dollar.

When running a company and when receiving payments through it, you end up paying around 80% in tax, on top of that comes personal.

Software is definitely more expensive, Max for example costs somewhere around 5000 euros.

 

When you consider all these facts, can you really think of a way to be THAT competitive in the US market? Of course not, people compensate, no one buys software, no one does work through a company, no one has medical or social, so it's all done in a very illegal, under-the-table manner.

 

To sum it up, you're not only competing with a cheaper economy...

 

I myself used to have that problem on a local level. But instead of going overseas, people would turn to kids that fooled around in 3d programs. I had a great deal of competition from drafters that get 3d renderings as a side-product when using software like archicad to draft. A simple low quality rendered perspective is enough to be posted on a construction site and you get it for free. Not to mention that you get the initial drawings very cheap because they are being drawn on warez.

 

When i buy software, i believe that it's an advantage to have tech support when something fails unexpectedly. Take vray for example, which is constantly being developed, and full of bugs. I have to admit, it's not guilt and consciousness that made me buy vray, it's the fear of big white splotches all over the image, a night before the deadline.

But then i figure out that the help files are accessible to anyone online, and that everyone can read the forums, so people can get over these problems for free. That one percent chance that a particular project will come to a particular error that needs full tech support to be solved is not enough to turn people away from warez users... if software reliability is an issue at all.

Just as you can afford to work on a cheap computer, you can afford to fix a red dot in photoshop.

 

 

As far as resources and training are concerned... The entire archmodels collection would cost a few thousand dollars, it's not much, but it's still an investment. Training dvds cost 60-70 bucks. Hell, nowadays you even have those arch interior and exterior sets from evermotion, where people far better than you'll ever be have already gone to the lengths of setting dozens of scenes to cover every single type of project you can encounter.

Find one warez site and you can get all of this for free.

 

Are these healthy market principles? I'm fresh of the boat myself, so i'd like to learn.

 

I've read a lot about the work conditions in chinese manufacturing plants. I remember some numbers from that place where they assemble Ipods, 16 hours workdays, living on factory grounds cramped in dorms with a hundred other people, and all that for 27 pounds a month or something like that. But it's not like a chinese company can decide to manufacture the same thing and sell it for less (well, more or less ), since they require a lot of r&d, and huge investments in manufacturing plants .

 

3d, is not like that, anyone can pick it up. It's up to you to make a counter-offer to every offer you receive from China or India saying that you will pay them that much NOT to work. Or maybe to work for you exclusively...

[afterglow]

i used to worry about the competition from china, but i've since discovered what a headache it can be getting the work done over there. i even outsourced a couple of jobs myself to chinese studios, but had to re-do both myself as they just couldn't seem to understand the basic instructions that i gave them. the language barrier was a nightmare. it was quite embarrassing to go back to the client and not have the simple changes done that had been requested.

 

a lot of the bigger arch firms here realise this too, and they generally don't outsource the important stuff overseas as they know they need it done by somebody they can communicate and work with during the course of the project.

 

there is a franchise arch viz company around the world with offices in australia called 'idrawfast'. they have a production team of 200 people in china and the franchisees have access to that.. they don't get a lot of repeat work.. i have had quite a few jobs come from developers that have used them and i havn't heard a lot of positivity from them about their experiences. i was even contracted by a client as a consultant to go into the franchisee's office and instruct them on how to setup their scenes/cameras etc!

[Nic H]

^ Yep thats the one I was talking about, they have a terrible reputation.

[mahorela]

was recently on the artmaze website.....one of the contributors to the resources section of this site when I came across this.

 

"Our prices are very competitive! We believe this is a service industry, suited for creativity, we do not like the "mass production" and "Mc.perspectives" concept, and so we do not sub-contract to unethical overseas "sweatshops".

 

I didn't realise that Idrawfast has their workforce based in China......their work is average at best but it certainly does provide a human face to what Artmaze is talking about, whether you agree with it or not.

 

Would be interesting to know what they charge for their services.....how does it compare to market value?

[MrCAD]

I know how you feel ryan...but as ernest said..we need to flow with it. Well there is a minority of the crowd in India who look for outsource jobs. The indian Archviz potential is much better than US I suppose right now..we get better money out here rather than struggling to get jobs from US or any other countries. Its this small crowd of Archviz people who try to get outsourcing. I feel if you pay more you receive quality or else you end up finishing up the projects at your end. Seeing the price of living in India is very cheap comparing the pay they get here too. I feel this is just a phase everyone is going through. Well this is just like a slow poison...you simply need to start educating your clients instead of worrying about loosing jobs. Frankly noone is to be blamed..its just a global competition. The big studios from the US have started setting up studios in India due to LOW salary structure with almost the same talent. Its the studios who have exploited..but I donot feel its exploitation..its just part of earning higher profits and huge competition for the US markets itself.

 

I would simply stick to whatever I do and never think of competition..we too have local competition but we try to get better turnovers. This will ultimately end once clients realize that you have to pay higher to receive better quality.

 

Meher

http://www.mr-cad.com

[batteryoperatedlettuce]

I thought I might have something to add to this, as I work in the architectural design industry in Shanghai and I have had contact with numerous rendering companies, who offer a wide range of rendering services in a highly varied price range.

 

I'm not sure of the exact number, but me and my colleague discussing this together, agree that there must be hundreds of rendering companies in Shanghai alone. Some are good some are bad.

 

Many of them are fairly standardized. They break up their office into departments and put their renderings on a production line. The break down of these standardized companies is roughly as follows.

 

1) Modelers. This team works on the architectural blocking and is the lowest paid division, a modeling guy is more or less a laborer and an inexperienced worker gets paid as little as 800 RMB a month - that's eighty USD for a relatively unskilled guy who just knows the basics - up to about 5000 RMB for a top guy, 625 USD a month. The average for these production line modelers is about 2000 RMB a month - 250 USD.

 

2) Another bunch of guys do the materials and lighting and get paid a bit more. The salary varies depending on skill and experience but I'd say you can hire a fairly competent guy for about 10,000 RMB a month - 1250 USD. If you are happy to take on a less skilled worker and train them up, it's possible to get someone in this field for about 4/5000 RMB per month.

 

3) Another department deals with post production and the cost of hiring a guy to do this is roughly comparable to the above.

 

4) Animators are probably the most expensive and can earn more, but I’d say the ceiling is about 20,000 RMB. Obviously there are some geniuses who can make a bit more.

 

All of the above vary depending on experience, but as you can see - it is not expensive to put together a team at a very low cost. I don't want to touch the area of software piracy, but as you can imagine, if you manage to negate this overhead, you are looking at a very inexpensive venture.

 

In addition, the market is crowded. Local costs are very low. A very cheap (and crap) company delivered their portfolio to our office recently, (which we receive by the cart load) offering still exterior renderings for 1200-1500 a shot - 187.50 bucks. The lowest I’ve ever seen is about 125 bucks.

 

Most companies of this type can hammer out a still rendering in a day - two tops. The quality is not always genius, but the clients here are fairly used to seeing them and at the conceptual planning stage we often outsource renderings to these companies when deadlines are tight.

 

It is also quite common for US and EU companies to open up a joint venture branch office in Shanghai, using the Chinese team to tackle Asia projects and to do the donkey work for their own projects, whilst maintaining their original company in the states. Foreign experts in this field also set up Chinese registered companies in order to take advantage of the low costs.

 

I don't really have any untoward opinion about international business in this market. It costs what it costs to get the job done right? Foreign investors, who set up here with a Chinese Staff and a good list of international contacts have an obvious advantage and in an international market, why on earth shouldn’t they take it.

 

I agree with the people who have stated that in order to sell a brand you have to make it distinct. The standardized production line system of the Chinese rendering companies I described above would not be possible in the states. Nobody wants to sit around for five years building blocks, without ever learning how to attach a material to it. We got a couple of cheap staff to come and work for us, and that is exactly what they had been doing. With a bit of a push and some encouragement they can now produce reasonable renderings in Vray from start to finish, but the quality of their work is distinctly different from the work produced by the production line guys because they did the whole thing themselves. It has more character in my opinion.

 

I think the future will be bright for those people who, as well as being able to handle client requirements and deadlines, are also able to characterize their work and make it distinct. Thomas Schaller is still making a living out there painting architectural watercolors because when some guy at Skidmore or Pace employs him, they know what they’re going to get. Going on a message board and telling everyone to “Buy American” Isn’t going to change the situation one bit. What you should be telling people is to “Create American” Then everyone will buy it!

[aaron-cds]

This has been a very interesting topic to follow. When I first started out on my own in November 2005, I let myself worry about oversea's undercutting. Once I figured out there was nothing I could do about it I started to concentrate on developing my skill set. Ernest makes a very good point about honing your craft. That's the only thing we can do as artists. You need to set yourself apart from the local competition.

 

Another thing we can do is to hope Autodesk and other giant software companies take a stance similar to the music industry. A few years ago, everyone thought it was safe to download music, even though everyone knew it was stealling. Then, the more serious offenders started getting sued. I think we need to lobby to the corporations who are getting hurt the most by warrez monkeys. If it's true what people say about pirated software, I would think that Autodesk would care.

 

Currently, if you're good, there's plenty of work in the states. Customer service and timeliness are very important to architect's and developer's who need a rendering to sell there baby to a city review board. Would you try to save $1500 on a project that was costing you $30 million. These developer's aren't stupid. It's the architects who don't have the budget for a rendering that are undercutting our market. It's ironic that an industry so undervalued itself, turns around and undervalues our industry. Fortunately, not all architects are like this. In my marketing efforts, I've found a very small percentage of architecture firms that outsource for the $500 rendering. I don't want that client anyway, so I'm working on getting the good clients. So far, it's working.

 

On a side note, if you're an overseas rendering studio, STOP SENDING ME SPAM! I'M NOT GOING TO SUBCONTRACT WORK TO YOU. DON'T SEND 6 - 7 MB OF JPG IMAGES AS ATTACHMENTS TO SHOW YOUR WORK. GET A WEBSITE! Jeez

[alfienoakes]

On a side note, if you're an overseas rendering studio, STOP SENDING ME SPAM! I'M NOT GOING TO SUBCONTRACT WORK TO YOU. DON'T SEND 6 - 7 MB OF JPG IMAGES AS ATTACHMENTS TO SHOW YOUR WORK. GET A WEBSITE! Jeez

 

Yeah.. but Aaron..

 

I bet a lot of it gives you a really good laugh at what some people are getting away with.. I know it makes us laugh... and feel a lot better about what we do.