Dealing with oversea's undercutting...

[aaron-cds]

Some of it is funny, but I have to admit, there is some AMAZING work coming out of China. It's too bad that there's a chance they're not using legitimate software. It's a different world out there. The internet is bringing us all to the same table. That is a good thing overall, but it does have its drawbacks.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if we as Americans had to be immigrants? Do you think there's a country out there that would be our 'Ellis Island'? Perhaps in Dubai.

[3DEXTRUDE]

Some of it is funny, but I have to admit, there is some AMAZING work coming out of China. It's too bad that there's a chance they're not using legitimate software. It's a different world out there. The internet is bringing us all to the same table. That is a good thing overall, but it does have its drawbacks.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if we as Americans had to be immigrants? Do you think there's a country out there that would be our 'Ellis Island'? Perhaps in Dubai.

 

 

umm...aaron " all americans are immigrants" lol...Well, i guess the topic remains in great debate over these oversea rendering companies.

 

Give a kid some markers and let them draw these companies who wants your work for 150 bucks for a render a picture of a house with pretty windows..

 

If 3D continues being so low in price and other companies are willing to go with these type of firms, than doing freelance work is out of the question. Get a salary job, you will be MUCH HAPPIER!!

 

cheerz

[Ernest Burden III]

" all americans are immigrants"

 

Not all. When the first immigrants stepped off their boats there was someone on the shore saying "howdy, stranger".

 

And I want to clarify what I wrote earlier, cautioning taking an 'us vs them' tone on CGarchitect. Its fine if you take that at face value, but I really meant to point out that "us IS them". CGA enjoys the participation of artists from all those places we are naively calling 'overseas'.

[aaron-cds]

3dextrarude, thanks for the advice

[3DEXTRUDE]

3dextrarude, thanks for the advice

 

you are welcome:rolleyes:

[3DEXTRUDE]

Not all. When the first immigrants stepped off their boats there was someone on the shore saying "howdy, stranger".

 

And I want to clarify what I wrote earlier, cautioning taking an 'us vs them' tone on CGarchitect. Its fine if you take that at face value, but I really meant to point out that "us IS them". CGA enjoys the participation of artists from all those places we are naively calling 'overseas'.

 

I think " howdy, stranger" was not even spoken at that time..only people who had feathers in their hair, and a tradition that were around that time. But in any case...life goes one.

 

I won't get into history but i think you get the point..

 

 

ps..I wasnt really trying to say US VS THEM...As artists we come together from all walks of life, on a site or forum as true. But this thread was about oversea jobs vs us jobs...So it is kinda us vs them. There is no racial issues invovled or hatred towards anyone in any country. We are simply stating the facts. There should be no problems in mentioning the payments accepted there vs here.

[Sawyer]

Maybe its not a point worth dwelling on but I think it is worth mentioning that pirating software does not only happen in India and China. EVERY firm I have ever worked had many people who had a "copy of 3ds max at home". I probably know more people who have pirated software than don't, but many don't work professionally. I went to an archi office 2 weeks ago and saw the local "competition" this was a guy who had a "copy" of every software and his work was so terrible. But he charged $700 for a very large building, background buildings and he included all revisions. This was a complete building with all views. Now his work was the worst I had ever seen, no materials just colors, no GI black shadows and the clouds were flipped 90 and intersected the ground. When I told the client my prices they dropped their jaws. Plus they would have to pay my time to change the model when the design changed.

 

Ironically they used me the next week because a client of theirs complained about the renderings.

But pirated software happens everywhere and at every level. CGTALK had a poll a while ago about how uses warez and the numbers were huge.

[AJLynn]

Heh. With the Max subscription plan, we're licensed to have "a copy of Max at home".

[3DEXTRUDE]

Maybe its not a point worth dwelling on but I think it is worth mentioning that pirating software does not only happen in India and China. EVERY firm I have ever worked had many people who had a "copy of 3ds max at home". I probably know more people who have pirated software than don't, but many don't work professionally. I went to an archi office 2 weeks ago and saw the local "competition" this was a guy who had a "copy" of every software and his work was so terrible. But he charged $700 for a very large building, background buildings and he included all revisions. This was a complete building with all views. Now his work was the worst I had ever seen, no materials just colors, no GI black shadows and the clouds were flipped 90 and intersected the ground. When I told the client my prices they dropped their jaws. Plus they would have to pay my time to change the model when the design changed.

 

Ironically they used me the next week because a client of theirs complained about the renderings.

But pirated software happens everywhere and at every level. CGTALK had a poll a while ago about how uses warez and the numbers were huge.

 

 

Yes that true and i agree...Pirated sofware is out of control, and unfortunately with great technology comes pirated software and people who use the software for 2 hours or less, and call themselves professional 3D artists....

 

I have seen people who used every software out there in a book and put that all down on a resume, but came to find out they only used those softwares HARDLY or 1 time in their life time, and called themselves experts....

[rotten42]

I think one point that some people are misssing is that the "under cutting" isn;t just coming from over seas. There are many people here in North America that are doing it to. More than ever, a person's networking skills and customer service are skills that are just as important to keep developing along the render skills.

[Sawyer]

I think one point that some people are misssing is that the "under cutting" isn;t just coming from over seas.

 

 

And really what is undercutting? In a sence its cheaper overseas work but not really they are charging valid rates using the same financial structures people all over the world use its just that their overhead is dramatically different (and honeslty that is one of the keys to a successful business keeping the overhead low). What is really undercutting the market is a drafter who uses warez software and works his off hours at home. He can charge $10-100 per hour it may not matter because he has his overhead covered. I did this - I had legit software but when I started I was moonlighting and I could charge $20 per hour. It was great money and it was mad money, my bills were paid. When I went out independently I had to figure out a real world value for my work and it was a completly different number.

 

And really I don't think thats that big of a deal. I think a big problem is that so many places don't know what is possible.

[Devin Johnston]

I'd say a great majority of us freelance at one time or another it's just the nature of what we do. It is great money if you don't count the time you have to give up with your family in order to get the work done. However even when I do this kind of stuff I never undercharge for my work, I use the same rates as I would at my day job.

[3DEXTRUDE]

I'd say a great majority of us freelance at one time or another it's just the nature of what we do. It is great money if you don't count the time you have to give up with your family in order to get the work done. However even when I do this kind of stuff I never undercharge for my work, I use the same rates as I would at my day job.

 

 

Very good point..Freelancers do charge more than what they make at work though. As you already know, a freelancer should be charging about 35 dollars an hour and sometimes more, depending on your experience...At work if you make 25/hour you should be charging about 35-40 bucks an hour if you are a freelancer. I am sure you already know the reasons why...

 

Back to the topic of pirated software as someone mentioned that Audodesk should step in and stop, or everyone should complain about warez..well in all honesty " You will never stop it" Just because some people got sued in USA about pirated music, thats not even 1% of the world. You shut down, morpheus or some other musc peer-peer software, there are tons more that show up in another country. How would you really stop them?

 

By now Autodesk is very aware of pirated illegal software use, but if they could do something about it, i am sure they would of done it by now.

 

I think its insane to even think that any country could stop these pirated sites. The fact remains, that the only way you could stop them if you could make a product that you cannot BREAK. You cannot CRACK..but with todays technology, its kinda impossible.

 

Probably in the future we might achieve something, but not by complaining to autodesk to stop pirating, but by having autodesk implement a new technology that programmers wont be able to crack...i live the day to see that kinda technology..." shrugs and sips on orange juice at work"

[AJLynn]

Obviously some kind of crack-proof technology would help, but they've been trying to come up with one for years and haven't managed to. Not for lack of trying - there are a lot of copy protection schemes out there, and even more smart people who make a hobby of circumventing them.

 

Then there's this really disturbing trend where the more a company tries to copy protect their stuff, the more it hurts their legit customers without really hurting the people with pirated copies. For example, what Steve Jobs said - there are millions of customers who buy legal music online, and the DRM technology severely limits their ability to listen to it. Meanwhile, there's millions more people ripping CDs, trading copies of CDs, trading MP3s online, who aren't affected by said DRM at all. If you try to play an imported legit DVD from another region, your computer complains or your DVD player fails. If you play an illegal import DVD, it works perfectly.

 

Imagine the masters of user-unfriendliness at Autodesk and Microsoft, and what they could come up with if they locked themselves in a room for a month - maybe we're all better off with the way it is now.

[aaron-cds]

pirated software, $300 renderings, overseas competition

[Sawyer]

Thanks Aaron haven't heard GNR for a while.

[aaron-cds]

crank it

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!

[3DEXTRUDE]

Obviously some kind of crack-proof technology would help, but they've been trying to come up with one for years and haven't managed to. Not for lack of trying - there are a lot of copy protection schemes out there, and even more smart people who make a hobby of circumventing them.

 

Then there's this really disturbing trend where the more a company tries to copy protect their stuff, the more it hurts their legit customers without really hurting the people with pirated copies. For example, what Steve Jobs said - there are millions of customers who buy legal music online, and the DRM technology severely limits their ability to listen to it. Meanwhile, there's millions more people ripping CDs, trading copies of CDs, trading MP3s online, who aren't affected by said DRM at all. If you try to play an imported legit DVD from another region, your computer complains or your DVD player fails. If you play an illegal import DVD, it works perfectly.

 

Imagine the masters of user-unfriendliness at Autodesk and Microsoft, and what they could come up with if they locked themselves in a room for a month - maybe we're all better off with the way it is now.

 

 

Yes, agree 110%. We are better off with the way it is now. Unless some alien comes up with some kind of new technology that only he knows, and autodesk ask his service to come up with a new plan for 3ds max, maya etc..so that nobody can crack. Until that happens, ill just stay put and look at the bright side of the world without worrying about pirated software.

 

"shrugs and gets back to work"

[kippu]

wow GNR .... long time since that happened .... thanks aaron..

 

3 months and this thread be back in another form ...thats the way it goes

[pailhead]

This guy used to create renderings like this for $20 each. Now there's some healthy competition....

 

 

I wouldn't exactly call them bad...

[Devin Johnston]

No there not bad but I'd call it just plane stupid.....$20 is insulting; why not just give them away or better yet he could pay the client for the honor of just doing the work!

[aaron-cds]

I won't even click the left mouse button for $20

 

If that was the quality level by the overseas competition, none of us would need to worry. We could all just say "You pay for what you get".

 

The fact is, there are overseas rendering studios that are doing cutting edge work for a fraction of the cost.

[lyca]

there is something we must think about,

why does other graphic designer do not have this problem ?

 

- Why do designer in graphics, motion-work and so on not complain of oversea competition,

 

it's because their job is more in their head than in the softwares.

 

- why architects never complain that their clients are going oversea ?

 

it's maybe because those guy does things with is not relying just on the software and technology, they give something that no software can make,

imagination for the architects,

 

if we are asking money just to push the mouse and let the computer do the job, than guys, i think anyone who can do this is your competitor, if we give more than that like creativity, talent, experience, proximity, things that we can call brain value, nobody can outsource those quality.

 

off coarse there are talented people everywhere.

 

the business model i see for the future is, we send to overseas all the modeling and technical time consuming stuff, and do the creative hight end finishing here, so we reduce the quote, do more volume and keep the contact with the client. that's what I'm going to do.

[Jason Yetter]

The fact is, there are overseas rendering studios that are doing cutting edge work for a fraction of the cost.

 

Now I'm curious to see examples - any links to sites?

[3DEXTRUDE]

No there not bad but I'd call it just plane stupid.....$20 is insulting; why not just give them away or better yet he could pay the client for the honor of just doing the work!

 

Ask a 5 year old to draw him a picture for 20 bucks..