Dealing with oversea's undercutting...

[aaron-cds]

Now I'm curious to see examples - any links to sites?

 

Lol, you'll just have to take my word for it. According to your public profile, you're a student now, but you could end up working for a potential client someday if you end up in an architect's office. I don't want to let you in on who can do the work I do for a lot less. While I'm not really worried about overseas competition, I'm not going to point anyone in that direction intentionally.

[Jason Yetter]

Lol, you'll just have to take my word for it. According to your public profile, you're a student now, but you could end up working for a potential client someday if you end up in an architect's office. I don't want to let you in on who can do the work I do for a lot less. While I'm not really worried about overseas competition, I'm not going to point anyone in that direction intentionally.

 

Guess it was kind of a dumb question - I understand your position completely. What I really wanted, though, was to just see first hand if the work was really as good and inexpensive as everyone seems to be saying.

 

THEN I'll send all those future projects over there.

 

[aaron-cds]

If you want to see outstanding work by some of the large outfits in Asia look at some of these companies. DISCLAIMER: THIS IS OFF-TOPIC TO THIS THREAD. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THESE COMPANIES UNDERCUT THE MARKET, USE PIRATED SOFTWARE OR ENGAGE IN ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES.

 

I have seen prices from overseas companies that are 25% less than my fees and do the same work quality as my company. The companies below are not the ones I'm talking about.

 

www.chen3d.com - one of my favorites

 

http://usa.crystalcg.com/perspective/Night%20Views.html - amazing night shots

 

http://www.opdigital.net/ - great exteriors

 

and here's some other companies on my "would love to be like them" list

 

http://www.smoothe.com/smootheHome.html

http://www.hayesdavidson.com/html/home/home.html

http://www.the-neighbourhood.com/indexflash.html - not trying to suck up to the AVC 2007 judges

http://www.spine3d.com/

http://www.neoscape.com/clients/neoscape/flash_content.html

[Jason Yetter]

Thanks, Aaron. All truly amazing work - as is your own.

[aaron-cds]

Thanks, maybe someday I'll be like the great artists I admire.

[MandelbrotJr]

Hi, first let me tell you that this is one of the most interesting threads that I've read in the forum. While I'm haven't posted much, I've been a regular reader of the forum for more than two years and I think it would be interesting for the community to read a bit about the "other side".

It might appear that I'm getting off topic, but bear with me for a while...

 

I'm 29 yo and I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina. While not technically overseas it's a low cost country by any standard.

I've been doing Architectural Visualization for 6 years as a hobby, and it's something I love to do.

The interesting thing about my position is that I work for IBM, yep the big blue. I've been working for 7 years in IBM Argentina, 6 of them as a Global Resource (aka supporting processes in other countries).

Right now I'm the enterprise architect for a brand at a WW level, in charge of making sure that all the systems and processes keep working from a technical standpoint and acting as a project manager for several high profile efforts. My manager is in charge of the whole IT operation at a WW level for that brand. I travel to the US 7/8 times a year and I have very good friends over there.

And while this might sound pretentious, we are VERY good at what we do compared to US/European or WW standards.

 

I earn about u$s 900 a month, and that is a very decent salary in Argentina. Just you give you an idea of how much you can do with that kind of money, I can pay the rent for my 2 bedroom flat almost 4 months. I have peers (as in reporting to my manager) in the US earning 5/10 times that much. So while any amount of money can sound as "too low" or "too high", it all depends on the context. For a IBMer working in Bangalore u$s 900 is a FORTUNE.

 

So, and to get back to the main topic, globalization is here and it's not going away, but it's not only guys working on their homes undercutting US/UK visualization companies, it's also Fortune 500 companies saving billions of dollars and enriching their workforce by using top talent in other countries.

There is people who is taking advantage of this global trend to undercut and just aim for the quick buck, and also there is people who love what they do and aim for quality, reliability and teamwork. This is the same everywhere.

 

I'm been thinking for a while about opening my own company an earn a living working in visualization. And trust me, never ever I though "hey I can charge 50 bucks for each image, undercut some UK guy who's working his ass off to match my quality/price balance and force my way into the global market".

Will my prices be lower that UK guy/company ? probably, due to the fact the cost of creating those images is lower (not the HW/SW, but education, taxes, salaries, expenses, etc are).

And trust me, it's not going to be easy for me too, as I have a TON of competition in my own country that will try to undercut me.

I really think that in this global market, both PRICE and QUALITY OF SERVICE are the two big drivers so I will need to get my "product/service/price" as a whole to be better than the rest if I am to succeed.

 

It doesn't really matter where you live, the recipe for success is the same.

 

Well, that's it. I hope these lines will give you a brief glimpse of what's in the mind of someone who just happened to be born in another country but shares the passion for a really great profession.

[rotten42]

Hi, first let me tell you that this is one of the most interesting threads that I've read in the forum. While I'm haven't posted much, I've been a regular reader of the forum for more than two years and I think it would be interesting for the community to read a bit about the "other side".

It might appear that I'm getting off topic, but bear with me for a while...

 

I'm 29 yo and I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina. While not technically overseas it's a low cost country by any standard.

I've been doing Architectural Visualization for 6 years as a hobby, and it's something I love to do.

The interesting thing about my position is that I work for IBM, yep the big blue. I've been working for 7 years in IBM Argentina, 6 of them as a Global Resource (aka supporting processes in other countries).

Right now I'm the enterprise architect for a brand at a WW level, in charge of making sure that all the systems and processes keep working from a technical standpoint and acting as a project manager for several high profile efforts. My manager is in charge of the whole IT operation at a WW level for that brand. I travel to the US 7/8 times a year and I have very good friends over there.

And while this might sound pretentious, we are VERY good at what we do compared to US/European or WW standards.

 

I earn about u$s 900 a month, and that is a very decent salary in Argentina. Just you give you an idea of how much you can do with that kind of money, I can pay the rent for my 2 bedroom flat almost 4 months. I have peers (as in reporting to my manager) in the US earning 5/10 times that much. So while any amount of money can sound as "too low" or "too high", it all depends on the context. For a IBMer working in Bangalore u$s 900 is a FORTUNE.

 

So, and to get back to the main topic, globalization is here and it's not going away, but it's not only guys working on their homes undercutting US/UK visualization companies, it's also Fortune 500 companies saving billions of dollars and enriching their workforce by using top talent in other countries.

There is people who is taking advantage of this global trend to undercut and just aim for the quick buck, and also there is people who love what they do and aim for quality, reliability and teamwork. This is the same everywhere.

 

I'm been thinking for a while about opening my own company an earn a living working in visualization. And trust me, never ever I though "hey I can charge 50 bucks for each image, undercut some UK guy who's working his ass off to match my quality/price balance and force my way into the global market".

Will my prices be lower that UK guy/company ? probably, due to the fact the cost of creating those images is lower (not the HW/SW, but education, taxes, salaries, expenses, etc are).

And trust me, it's not going to be easy for me too, as I have a TON of competition in my own country that will try to undercut me.

I really think that in this global market, both PRICE and QUALITY OF SERVICE are the two big drivers so I will need to get my "product/service/price" as a whole to be better than the rest if I am to succeed.

 

It doesn't really matter where you live, the recipe for success is the same.

 

Well, that's it. I hope these lines will give you a brief glimpse of what's in the mind of someone who just happened to be born in another country but shares the passion for a really great profession.

 

 

so how much does your software cost in Argentina? It would seem to me that it would take a while to save up to buy 3D studio @ a salary of $900 per month.

[MandelbrotJr]

Good Point, SW prices from big corporations (Adobe, Microsoft, Autodesk, etc) have more or less the same price than in the US. HW prices are higher but not that much, 15% plus aprox. You can get XSI 6 Foundation for around u$s 550.

 

But you are correct, that's the biggest investment that you need to face when starting this kind of bussiness, the ROI from the HW/SW purchase is much lower. The good news is that I can affort to pay myself much less compared to someone living in the US/UK from the same pure income and devote a bigger share of the money to cover for the operating expenses and pay up the SW/HW. Let's say I earn u$s 2000 a month (just a figurative number), I can take 1000 for me and expend the other 1000 paying the SW/HW and the rest of the expenses. The end result is the same overall.

There are very good goverment sponsored credit lines for small business starting up, and tax cuts for capital purchaces (HW/SW).

Also my SO earns as much as I do, that certanly helps

[pailhead]

so how much does your software cost in Argentina? It would seem to me that it would take a while to save up to buy 3D studio @ a salary of $900 per month.

 

This is actually a very good point. If people in low-cost countries actually bought their software, it would definitely not be as spread out as it is now. Several thousand dollars is a huge investment if you're saving up to a couple of hundred bucks a month...

 

Growing crops in india or somewhere is probably cheaper than growing them in california, but you have to buy machinery instead of a plow if you want to compete... Thats why it's usually the companies from the developed world that are exploiting cheaper economies.

 

Think about it, if the software was uncrackable, majority of people doing 3d in developing countries would be working for you, instead of competing with you.

[pailhead]

No there not bad but I'd call it just plane stupid.....$20 is insulting; why not just give them away or better yet he could pay the client for the honor of just doing the work!

 

 

But why is that any different than what that guy was preaching about several pages ago? This man can afford to render for 20 bucks each. He makes 20 renderings per model, which sums up to a nice amount for these standards.

 

Where is the line that separates "the insulting and stupid" and "healthy competition, market standards, dictated by globalization"? Is it $150 per image, 300 maybe? Does such a line even exist, or every punch is permitted, since there is no belt to go below it?

 

Like i said, back home, i had to compete with people like these, but that still wasn't the extreme, like i said the extreme were those free renderings, that went along with drafting services.

[rotten42]

But why is that any different than what that guy was preaching about several pages ago? This man can afford to render for 20 bucks each. He makes 20 renderings per model, which sums up to a nice amount for these standards.

 

Where is the line that separates "the insulting and stupid" and "healthy competition, market standards, dictated by globalization"? Is it $150 per image, 300 maybe? Does such a line even exist, or every punch is permitted, since there is no belt to go below it?

 

Like i said, back home, i had to compete with people like these, but that still wasn't the extreme, like i said the extreme were those free renderings, that went along with drafting services.

 

 

My problem isn't so much with the people "under-cutting" as much as it is with the firms that use them and then turn-around and complain that they are losing projects to other firms that hav ethe low bid.

[bytor]

Wow!!!

 

This thread has become an instant classic! I must commend the group as a whole for coming back to a constructive discussion after teetering on the edge of derailing several times. There have been so many good points made and there is plenty of food for thought here.

 

While we americans have brought a lot of the circumstances upon ourselves - I beleive we are seeing that undercutting is a global issue no matter where you render from. One of the things that sticks with me regarding those of you dealing with clients that try and chop your prices by showing you a post card or pamphlet that proclaims they will deliver amazing imagery for $300 - $500 a pop - they are the issue. We live in global times that reflect an emphasis on a board room profit margin mentality. The combined temptation of cheep labor and market driven short sighted economics push those that don't understand the creative or production processes we live with day to day.

 

I personally have issues with outsourcing design visualization work wether it be overseas or across town. I don't consider working with freelance artisist or professional VIZ firms as outsourcing, as there is typically a working relationship established whereas they are part of a project "team". Each team member brings value to the table. It can be the smallest detail that makes a difference in how the work is viewed and accepted by those for which it is intended. If the architect or manager that saved $2K on a design proposal image (by going to a cheep outsorce) doesn't understand what the difference is - they likely never will. But when the client rejects the design and he goes back to the drawing board - he will quickly lose that profit, and likely much more. And he probably won't even consider that the client might have missed the point of the design conveyed in the images because they got hung up on the fact that there would never likely be 2 Aston Martins (even though they are different colors and going in the opposite direction) driving down the street in front of their new office building located in the middle of Indiana.

 

Bytor

[kippu]

Hi, first let me tell you that this is one of the most interesting threads that I've read in the forum. While I'm haven't posted much, I've been a regular reader of the forum for more than two years and I think it would be interesting for the community to read a bit about the "other side".

 

very good post ...good luck with your company

[3DEXTRUDE]

Wow!!!

 

This thread has become an instant classic! I must commend the group as a whole for coming back to a constructive discussion after teetering on the edge of derailing several times. There have been so many good points made and there is plenty of food for thought here.

 

While we americans have brought a lot of the circumstances upon ourselves - I beleive we are seeing that undercutting is a global issue no matter where you render from. One of the things that sticks with me regarding those of you dealing with clients that try and chop your prices by showing you a post card or pamphlet that proclaims they will deliver amazing imagery for $300 - $500 a pop - they are the issue. We live in global times that reflect an emphasis on a board room profit margin mentality. The combined temptation of cheep labor and market driven short sighted economics push those that don't understand the creative or production processes we live with day to day.

 

I personally have issues with outsourcing design visualization work wether it be overseas or across town. I don't consider working with freelance artisist or professional VIZ firms as outsourcing, as there is typically a working relationship established whereas they are part of a project "team". Each team member brings value to the table. It can be the smallest detail that makes a difference in how the work is viewed and accepted by those for which it is intended. If the architect or manager that saved $2K on a design proposal image (by going to a cheep outsorce) doesn't understand what the difference is - they likely never will. But when the client rejects the design and he goes back to the drawing board - he will quickly lose that profit, and likely much more. And he probably won't even consider that the client might have missed the point of the design conveyed in the images because they got hung up on the fact that there would never likely be 2 Aston Martins (even though they are different colors and going in the opposite direction) driving down the street in front of their new office building located in the middle of Indiana.

 

Bytor

 

 

Very good post....