Render machine

[PGD]

Hi folks, you may be getting bored of answering this question but a quick seach didnt answer anything, so here goes...

 

Were looking to get a render machine, a start of a very small farm maybe My knowledge of computer hardware is very limited, so the more you can help the better!

 

At the moment I just have the one HP Duel CoreAMD Opteron machine, 2.39GHz, 3.2 GB RAM, compatabitily with this is very important... (dont even know if that is good, just copied it from system properties )

 

What do we need to look for in a render machine? RAM?

 

I'm not sure what the budget is either so feel free to put down a few options. I think we would be looking around the £1k mark for just one extra machine.

 

Thanks in advance

[AJLynn]

RAM and CPUs. Core2 Duo and Quad boxes have good performance/price.

[kippu]

check out the q6600 quad core and 4 gb ram

[PGD]

So what we need is fast processors, the more of them the better and plenty of RAM in there too. What about the graphics card? Or is that not an issue??

 

check out the q6600 quad core and 4 gb ram

Sorry, I dont know what the 'q6600' means Quad core and ram yeah, but what is q6600?

[AJLynn]

In that case I suggest you familiarize yourself somewhat with Intel's product offerings.

[AFK_Matrix]

Q6600 is the naming convention for Intels Quad Core CPU's (One CPU chip with 4 cores on it not 4 seperate CPU chips).

 

Your not gonna want to overclock so just get a nice solid board that supporst the processor, maybe a 680i. There are lots but EVGA are pretty good.

 

As said stuff as much ram as you can afford into it, rams very cheap now personally i would go for 8gb but only if your using Vista or XP 64bit. Normal XP won't support more than 3gb of ram.

 

As for graphics unless your gonna be wizzing round huge complex models in your viewports one of the 8800GTS 640mb should be fine.

 

Here is a quick list of components I knocked up:

 

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/viewcart.php

 

Lots of things you could change there but gives you an idea.

[PGD]

Thanks for that AFK!

 

Things are becoming a little clearer...

 

I can't view your Overclockers shopping cart you knocked up, any chance of listing those components on here?

 

I've never been into IT personally, hence the struggle so all help is much appreciated!

[AJLynn]

Stay away from Vista 64. It's got all kinds of issues. I've been using XP64 for the last year or so and it's great, only things I have that it doesn't support are a program for compatibility with Mac disks and an old ATI TV card (the newer ones are supported).

[AFK_Matrix]

Hmm Wierd you can't read that list.

 

Ok here is the list:

 

Seasonic M12 Modular 600W Silent ATX2.0 Power Supply - £105.74

 

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 160GB ST3160815AS SATA-II 8MB Cache - OEM - £ 37.59

 

Leadtek GeForce 8800 GTS 640MB GDDR3 HDTV/Dual DVI (PCI-Express) - Retail - £225.59

 

OCZ 4GB (2 x 2GB) PC2-5400C5 Dual Channel Vista Upgrade Gold Series DDR2 (OCZ2VU6674GK) x 2 - £258.48

 

Akasa Eclipse 62 Aluminium Case - No PSU - £93.99

 

Intel Core 2 Quad Pro Q6600 "LGA775 Kentsfield" 2.40GHz (1066FSB) - Retail - £346.61

 

EVGA nForce 680i SLi (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard (122-CK-NF68-A1) - £176.24

 

Thats roughly £1260, you will probably need a CD/DVD writer in there as well.

[PGD]

Thanks again

 

I'll check that list out in one sec...

 

Another quick one, would I be much better off getting XP64 in too? Is it reliable with max?

 

Everyone is on Apple Macs here so the PC wont get much of a look in from the IT guys if its unstable

[AFK_Matrix]

As Andrew said XP 64 bit would be a better choice as Vista still has issues. I would also say if your company don't deal with PC's much and your IT department can't support you if you have hardware problems it maybe worth going to one of the big builders like Dell etc. Not sure which one to use as I hate not building my systems so havn't had a pre built one in ages. So im sure others will give you advise on that side. It just means if the computer is misbehaving you can ring Dell or whoever up and have a good yell at them lol

[PGD]

Yeah, I think the HP I'm using was built for them so maybe they would preffer to go that route again. We'll see...

 

Thanks very much for the advice!

[PGD]

Well the IT guru here took a look at AFK's list... and thought it was overpriced

 

Then recomended this http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/pcrange.html?NEL, what do you think to that? A better option, or is he wrong and talking out of his ***?

[AJLynn]

That's not bad, the AMD 6000+ is a 3GHz dual core, but the Core2 Quad with 8GB would leave it in the dust crying for its mama on any rendering task. Also, it looks like it comes with Vista, which is still not best for 3D work and won't be for a year or two - when everybody updates software and drivers, MS releases a service pack, Vista64 has a compatible hardware list that's more than 1 page long and computers are twice as fast as they are now.

[AFK_Matrix]

LoL I did say that that list could be tweaked. As you didn't give a very good idea of budget i just slapped that together. If your aiming to build it yourselves then there are ways you can save money but still have a quality system.

 

For instance, the motherboard is a tad expensive so go for something in the 650i range which are around £80. Also 8 GB would be fantastic but hey start with 4 and see if thats ok then you can always add another 2-4gb later.

 

And as Andrew mentioned the Dual Core intel chip would walk over an AM2 dual core so a Quad core is just showing 2 fingers to an AM2 Dual core hehe.

 

Also why do you want 2 harddrives on an render machine? On my render machine I barely put any files, mind you we have a central server. If this render machine is also going to serve as your storage then fair enough.

 

You havn't said but Im assuming your not doing complex models in your viewports so you won't need the 8800GTX tbh. And you definetly don't need a soundcard in the machine. Basically that computer u linked to is a gaming machine and is not what your after.

 

Give me a firm budget and i'll come up with something. If your not gonna build it yourself I would look at phoning HP, Dell etc and getting a quote.

[PGD]

Again, thanks AFK. I'm not holding you to your list, hey, I dont know what some of the stuff is , I'm just acting like a middle man here to get the right equipment.

 

The budget is not set in stone at all. As always we just want to get the right bit of kit for the money, rather than buying a games machine with Vista on it . I think were aiming around the £1k mark, but if it ended up being 1400 then so be it. If that helps at all

 

The IT fella said 'I can build machines, but dont like to', maybe that does mean calling HP and let them build it.

 

I really want to go for a Core2 Quad and yeah stick some RAM in too. I will be working on complex models, but this machine is only to render, all the viewport working will be done on my current machine.

[AJLynn]

Oh, right, I forgot this is a rendering only box Then here's what you need to do. Ditch anything that doesn't contribute to rendering, including dropping the video card to the cheapest available like Kelly suggested and getting a hard drive that's maybe 100GB, 7200RPM, and drop the RAM to 4GB.

 

Then make the following argument to your IT people:

 

The goal of a render farm is to get as much CPU power as you can with enough RAM to support it. You invest four resources: money to buy the machines, staff to manage the machines, space to keep the machines in and electricity to power the machines and air condition or ventilate their space. All four of these investments are optimized by buying fewer machines with more CPU power per machine, because the fewer boxes you buy, the less of them you are spending on all the parts that are only there to service the CPUs: motherboard, power supply, video card, case, etc. There is another hidden plus factor in there: the benefits to the environment of consuming and eventually throwing away fewer computer parts.

 

Hypothesize two machines. Machine B is twice as powerful as machine A, is the same physical size, costs 50% more and uses 25% more electricity and has the same IT time requirement. If you buy machine B now instead of machine A, you will defray having to buy another A in the future, so the initial cash outlay, which is insignificant in a company large enough to have dedicated IT staff like yours, is easily defrayed very quickly and gives you the added bonus of having the additional computing power immediately.

 

(The air conditioning requirement is directly proportional to the amount of electricity your render farm uses, since all of this electricity is converted to heat. A room full of computers, like a render farm or a large IT department's machine room, requires its own air system, so minimizing power consumption is very important.)

 

In the long term, the savings from having a farm of B's versus an equivalent farm of A's will be in the thousands to hundreds of thousands of pounds range, depending on the size of your company.

[AFK_Matrix]

Yeah if your in a company thats quite large as yours sounds then as Andrew says (I think tired here, hope this is what Andrew ment) if you get a powerful machine now you won't have to bother getting another one for quite some time, you can also upgrade this machine if needs be.

 

If there is not going to be any actual modelling done on the pc then get a cheap GFX card like a ATI x1950 or something that will knock of another £100 odd quid. If your IT guy is willing to build it and then understands if anything goes wrong with it you will have to send the part back and thus have to wait while its repaired/get a replacement then go for it. But your IT guy doesn't sound enthusiastic, so I would go to Dell, HP etc and get them to build it. Will cost more but then you do have the resuarance of there warranty etc.

 

I will post again when I have had time to look at the components for a 1k budget.

[AFK_Matrix]

Ok as promised here is a spec that is actually under £1k so you could if you wished add some more ram.

 

Intel Core 2 Quad-Core Q6600, 775, 2.40 GHz, 1066MHz FSB, 8MB Cache, Retail *Game Included* - £337.21

 

Asus P5N-E SLI NF650i SLi, S775 PCI-E(x16) 533/667/800 MHz DDR2, SATA II SATA RAID ATX - £72.37

 

4Gb (2x2Gb) CorsairTwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC2-6400 (800), 240 Pins, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 5-5-5-18, EPP - £164.08

 

256MB Sapphire Radeon X1950GT, PCI-E(x16), Mem 1200MHz GDDR3, GPU 500MHz, 36 Pipes, RoHS - £86.00

 

Akasa Eclipse-62 Midi Tower Case - Hi-End w/o PSU - £88.11

 

160 Gb Seagate ST3160815AS Barracuda 7200.9, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 8MB Cache, 8.0 ms, NCQ - £35.71

 

600w Seasonic S12-600 SLi Ready Silent PSU 2xPCI-E 4xSATA 120mm Fan ATX1.3/2.01 - £84.00

120mm AK-183-L2B Akasa Amber Case Fan, 3 Pin, 2 Ball Bearing , Ultra Quiet and Long life - x2 £7.04

 

Lite-ON LH-20A1S-11C LiteOn 20x DVD±R, 8x DVD±DL, DVD+RW x8 / -RW x 6, DVD-RAM x12, SATA, Retail

 

TOTAL = £913.37

 

Of course you have to add in Win XP 64bit which is around £100 and then I didn't know if you needed keyboard, mouse or monitor?

[AJLynn]

Can you save a bit more by dropping the DVDR to a DVD reader and the x1950 to the lowest Radeon or Geforce that's not Hypermemory or Turbocache?

 

Also, Intel's going to drastically drop the pricing on quad cores later this summer, so any future machines with the same spec could come in 100 or 150 less based on that alone. Don't forget to factor in an XP64 license (presumably you're on Microsoft site licensing so it wouldn't be bought retail with the rest?)

[PGD]

Excellent, you have both given very valuble advise that I will be using until we get the machine you listed, or one as similar as possible from HP/Dell!

 

I think the thread has pointed out grey areas in our IT guy's lack of knowledge on the subject, which I was a little doubtful about anyway. But in fairness the machine is for a different use.

 

Thanks again. Lets wait and see what IT man says now

 

[AFK_Matrix]

Glad we could help Phil. As Andrew mentioned if you do want to save more money then just get the cheapest GFX u can find or find a motherboard with onboard GFX, you can mention that when you speak to Dell, HP etc.

 

I also know how you feel, I know far too much about computers lol (all that forum reading lol) and yet do I get a say in what computers are bought for what I do? Do I heck lol. Don't get me wrong the computers do the job but it would be nice if I could have some input, but hey ho.

 

Let us know how it goes in the end mate.

[PGD]

Well the saga continues...

 

I mentioned the 'Core2 Quad is the choice of many' He said:

'Choice for many because its they don’t understand the differences. I’m not saying the Intel isn’t a good chip, it is. I’m saying I’d choose the AMD.'

 

The Core2 Quad is better, right? and would out perform the Duel AMD

 

Budget is now 'No more than £800', pretty sure that’s not fallen by that small amount by coincidence, hey, it even undercuts his own suggestion

 

And it sounds like the machine will be built for us, rather than buying components. He says

'Actually it would probably work out cheaper. Large companies like HP and Dell Stock components it there 1000’s which means they get huge stock ordering discounts. They then pass that to customers.'

 

How true that is I dont know but I certainly cant put a machine together so that will have to be the route we go down.

[Mechadus]

Im probably kinda late coming in on this one, but I have an interesting factoid....

 

Ive built around 20 machines for our office here (render nodes) because the bang-for-the-buck on the pre-built nodes just isnt there IMO. The last batch of machines I built included 5 single-chip, dual core opterons with 4gb of ram, and 5 Intel Core2 Duo with 4gb of ram.... The opeteron machines (which were like $300 cheaper each) SMOKE the intel machines... Im talking like 20%-30% faster render times consistently. Now Im not an intel guy, but I built the 5 machines on my bosses request (Shiny advertisements make him want things).

 

Long story boring (too late) Seems like if you are on a budget and building yourself some machines, you money might go a little further with AMD - In my experience

 

Nick Kropat

 

Sr. 3D artist

http://www.3dwebmedia.com

[AJLynn]

Nicholai - were those dual opterons? Every test I've ever seen has the Intels with the same number of cores and similar or somewhat lower clock speed beating the AMDs, and unless AMD has done something really unexpected recently it's still the case.

 

Phil - your IT guy is, how to put this... wrong. You can quote me on that if you want to. Your IT guy has a certain set of ideas that he doesn't want to budge from, which is quite normal - IT guys are second only to architects in being convinced that they're smarter than you, fortunately my firm is blessed with a good one. It may be easier for you to just go along with what he says, but if you ever start adding more of these things it's going to cost him money and time. We have benchmarks around here somewhere on this site that demonstrate how superior the Intel stuff is but I've run out of time to write this