Academic Value VRAY

[Poll]

Hi all!

 

I had this discussion with a prof. at my university. We were discussing his disapprove for VRAY. He told me he didn't want to see it at the university because it had no academic value. The lighting in Vray is completely faked he said, and MAX's default radiosity solution is more accurate to real life lighting (the way it is calculated). I questioned him why there were so few 'photoreal' images of scanline, and so much more VRAY images who look realistic.

 

So who knows more about it? Do you think Vray is academic?

[hughie]

Hi Paul

I have not used Max Radiosity since figuring out the new Mental Ray over a year ago and have not looked back at since getting Vray a few months back.

Radiosity on 95 -100% setting is probably more true then Vray, it uses a pure number crunching method of calculating light, which is not practical for calculating any sort of detailed scene.

When you are making images for a living creating a good looking image as effectively as possible is what matters and Vray provides that with the minimum of fuss.

So I would say Vray has as much academic value as Max Radiosity if you are learning the art of image making. If I was still teaching I would make sure Vray was on the course.

What are you studying where that level of accuracy is necessary?

[Brian Smith]

I agree with Hugh. You're instructor seems both naive and clearly hasn't worked in production in a long time. Does he think any of our clients care if the program algorithms we use are physically accurate. Of course not, they only care about whether or not the image looks good. It's like saying the light cache is a poor choice because QMC is more accurate. I really dislike instructors that mouth off like they know wth they're talking about.

[Poll]

Hi Hugh and Brian. Thank you for your responses! I agree with you Hugh on the 95-100% setting. The method is indeed not practical for detailed scenes AND animations. Since (at least.. when I tried) it's light calculation is more dynamic, and it needs an entire new calculation for every frame. When I told him this, he replied with an answer something like... then I don't know what I'm doing... Well.. with default radiosity that's probably true.. but I read a lot about radiosity before starting to render.. so that anoys me.

 

I'm studying architecture at Eindhoven University of Technology. And I think that's what concerns them the most. The fact that the light calculations aren't 'real'. They want numbers of lux, etc. But what I care about creating an image that tells a story, creates an emotion and a feeling of familiarity with the viewer. This way I want to give myself AND the client more insight in the end product. I totaly agree on the level of fuss. Maybe the same result can be achieved with standard 3dsmax radiosity as with Vray. But i've worked with standard max for 5 years, and with Vray.. maybe a year. THe difference is HUGE! So, probably .. there's to much fuss like you said.

 

But just like you said Brian. I dislike instructors that mouth off like they know what they're talking about. Well, he teaches animation & rendering.. so he probably knows enough about that. But he doesn't like Vray without even knowing what it's about. I must say, I didn't know Vray's light calculation is achieved with 'tricks', but who cares? If I wanted to do light calculations for finding out about how many LUX, Candella or whatever would be in a room, I think I wouldn't be using MAX... right?

 

Oh.. he told me If I really wanted to render photoreal.. I had to use Renderman...

 

(next thing after this post is googleling for renderman )

 

Thanks for your replys... I love to hear more opinions on this topic!

[Horhe]

Is there any chance he dissaproves of vray because... he doesnt know how to use it?

Its easier to diss software (for a professor) than to admit that you have no clue about the settings.

 

You should consider studying vray at your spare time.

 

Cheers

[AJLynn]

Interesting discussion. Of the ones you've mentioned, the only software that has a light level analysis tool is Max Radiosity - you can use photometric lights and pseudocolor.

 

However, in terms of the correctness of the lighting calculation, if you use one of the physically accurate workflows floating around, Vray can be made to be better. And it's much better in terms of making your shaders physically accurate, since most of the Max shaders are full of hacks and kludges, and much easier to get good looking photorealistic results.

 

As for Renderman - WTH does he want you to do, cartoons? The thing costs several thousand dollars and barely handles bounced light.

 

But anyway, the real question is, what is this for and what do you want to do with it? Lighting analysis, beautiful renders, industrial strength cartoons? Or are you just looking for the best way to get people to understand your design? If it's a technical class and you need to do some lighting design and then see whether you've met the requirements in the standards books, just bang it out in radiosity and don't worry about it. If it's representation, that's part of design, it's your responsibility and you need to use the methods that will convey your ideas.

[Brian Smith]

Surely this instructor has a website displaying his photorealistic, real-world, physically accurate, breath-taking work? If so, please let us see.

[Poll]

@Jakub: Yes I know that if he would use Vray for a week, he would be convinced.

 

@Andrew: It has an interesting list of movies made with renderman, but lol.. many cartoons indeed! I'm having this discussion with this instructor, because he's partial administrator of our Design Systems Lab. I'm currently graduation on a part architecture part design systems project, and I want to research the influence of design visualisation on the architectural design process (and end result.. as far as this is possible to analyse). I want to do light studies (just general ones) materialisation studies.. alternatives in the early stages of the design process, just for me, my graduation committee and anyone who's interested in my design.. to get a better understanding of how the building works, or the esthetic quality of a space. And of course.. the more realistic, or maybe NPR and conceptual, the better..

So i'm trying to convince him to let me install Vray FREE, or even better.. let the department buy Vray (educational is really REALLY affordable.. not like renderman indeed!)... Because I think the high quality end results are a great plus to the architecture students (and I think you can easier visualise your ideas in 3d).... I need to discuss my design in the lab with my graduation board.. so I want Vray there to be able to show my 3dmodels texturised.

 

well.. I could go on about this for hours... because i'm currently writing an abstract for a conference at the end of this year. I'm writing about the influence of the virtual, our increasing ability to transfer ourselves into this world, and the meaning of this all for the architectural design process...

 

I love it.... so to answer your question I want to visualise my ideas, and visualise them with the endless enthousiasm that my mind created them with.

 

@brian: lol.. i didn't have the courage to ask him but he's more of a mathematician so I think it will all look like a first time render... makes me wonder what his lecture will look like... .. well actually this is one of his lectures http://www.ds.arch.tue.nl/7m836/exercises/ but I know those aren't his renders

 

thanks all for your responses!!

[Tommy L]

Wow, some nice work coming out of POV-ray and good to see it has a modeller program too rather than the text input. Anyone here used Bishop3d and POVray?

[Ricardo Eloy]

I guess it is a lot easier to diss softwares you don't master than actually learning them, as you guys said.

Anyway, I also hear this kind of things from college professors here, and I have the feeling they are so stuck in their own lecturing world that they forget about real life. A couple weeks ago I attended an event at Mackenzie University in São Paulo about rendering, CAD and BIM technology. A group pf professors were starting a scientific reseach groou to discuss how architecture is being changed by computers. After 2 hours listening to them, I only could remember that everything they said is written in my graduation paper, written 7 years ago. So, my humble opinion is that, if one wants to know about the latest stuff, one should talk to people who use it, not those who only teach it.

[aaron-cds]

It's like they say, those who can't do, teach.

[JamesTaylor]

It's like they say, those who can't do, teach.

 

and those that can't teach, teach teachers to teach:D

[Koper]

It's like they say, those who can't do, teach.

 

LOL, are the two Brians gona have a come-back?

 

hehe

 

We'll it is an institute and I guess you have to adhere to their curriculum. But that doesn't stop you from learning and using other apps for improving and set your own style. And luckily there is this site with gr8 people, such as the ones that have replied in this thread, who are in the industry, knows what is happening and does share, and all of that for anyone to benefit from.

[Tommy L]

Dunno about the Brians, but I find the old "those who cant do, teach" joke a little offensive to teachers. Both my parents are teachers. Lots of friends are teachers. My bro is a teacher and I would like to be a contributing lecturer at the local university. I know this is a light-hearted jibe and I dont want to come off as the stick-in-the-mud, but I think teachers are fab. They dont do it for the money, they do it because they like the feeling of helping people. In technical feilds tho, they are always going to be slightly behind the leading edge, as the industry pro's dictate the status quo.

[aaron-cds]

Dunno about the Brians, but I find the old "those who cant do, teach" joke a little offensive to teachers. Both my parents are teachers. Lots of friends are teachers. My bro is a teacher and I would like to be a contributing lecturer at the local university. I know this is a light-hearted jibe and I dont want to come off as the stick-in-the-mud, but I think teachers are fab. They dont do it for the money, they do it because they like the feeling of helping people. In technical feilds tho, they are always going to be slightly behind the leading edge, as the industry pro's dictate the status quo.

 

I believe that's a tongue-in-cheek saying. Lighten up Tommy. We've all had teachers that the saying applies to. Of course I'm not talking about all teachers.

[aaron-cds]

and those that can't teach, teach teachers to teach:D

 

lol, my wife would agree with this. She's a 2nd grade teacher who just finished grad school for elementary administration.

[schmoron13]

...since most of the Max shaders are full of hacks and kludges, and much easier to get good looking photorealistic results.

 

how long have you waited to use "kludges" in a post? good show old boy.

 

I had a similar experience about a year and a half ago (2nd year grad studio) when the professor, seeing an animation I did on natural light vis-a-vis Kahn's exeter library, remarked, "you know, light doesn't do that in real life?" Clearly, if you were doing photo-real light studies, your best bet is to either use specialty software, or make a physical model, but it always comes down to eating your cake and having it too.

 

of course, you could render it by hand, and i doubt ANY of your professors would complain on the real-iosity

[Tommy L]

 

you could render it by hand

 

You could........what?

[jackb602]

It sounds a bit extreme for this professor to say Vray has no value in an architecture school, but it's perfectly legitimate to be interested in tools that accurately simulate the behavior of light. If that's the case, then a false color rendering showing precise light levels would be more useful to him than the slickest most photoreal rendering. That would also explain why he doesn't have any sexy renderings in his portfolio.

 

Understandably, most of us are interested in using visualisation to make our clients' projects look good, by any means necessary. But using physically accurate renderings to aid in the design process is just as valuable, just a different goal.

[manta]

Although Renderman (PRMan to be more specific) is a great tool and is capable of far more than cartoons, its strengths are really speed and stability, and its no more accurate than any of the other choices i.e. Vray, Mentalray, Brazil or FinalRender, so the fact that your instructor gave that example scares me, there are many lighting simulators out there, I'm really surprised he didn't give one of those his recommendation...

[Poll]

hehehe. Yes.. good old days.. import a model to povray and render by 'hand' text.. or isn't that what you mean Doron?

 

aah.. yes.. I must say.. I love teachters too in (in general).. and would love to teach parttime someday. Only this one in specific is a mathematician. And this mathematic background is not very compatible with architecture in our faculty. No understanding... but hey.. he was open for discussion.. so thats GOOD!

 

@Ricardo: i've been to Mackenzie University in São Paulo too! 3 years ago.. they were not very advanced on 3d modelling/visualising yet. As far as i could see, they didn't have 3dstudio.. only vectorworks for 2d. But very nice faculty and GREAT!!! professors! I think i met Carlos Leitsche (spelling it wrong) and Lizette.... they were so enthousiastic and curious about dutch architecture!

 

Ok.. monday I'm gonna have a discussion with the instructor about it. I will keep your suggestions and remarks in mind!

 

oh.. @Andrew Lynn. what do you mean with "However, in terms of the correctness of the lighting calculation, if you use one of the physically accurate workflows floating around, Vray can be made to be better."

 

you mean the light setup? direct + sky? no faking with area lights? because indeed that seems quite 'real' to me too.

 

@AdriaaN: Yes.. i've learnt more about this industry on this forum than from my animation& rendering. Thanks all for that!!

[Poll]

@Jack Bransfield: hmm good point about the False color rendering showing precise light levels. I will defenately ask him. Also true about the most are interested in using visualisation to make our clients' projects look good. And I thought.. if the lighting in the visualisation looks perfect to the client.. thats always achievable .. isn't it? so.. how non-real is it anyway.

 

@william york: Aha.. so renderman fakes the light calculation too huh? well.. now I really don't understand what my instructor was talking about then.. another point to ask monday

 

 

well.. fortunately he isn't in my graduation committee.. my 2 members are really really great! They realy know a lot, and are great to work with! He actually was interested in Vray, and wanted a demo once. Since he's the chairmember of the department.. maybe I see a light at the end of the tunnel

[Tim Saunders]

A lot of this also depends on the class. Is the class supposed to be about prodicing the best images possible, is it about modeling an image, Like AJ said, is it a technical class where lighting analysis is a top priority?

 

I graduated my JR college a few years ago, and a year later talked the Department Director to load Vray Free on the machinces. The problem with the school I wnt to (and many others) is that the proffessors are teaching multiple classes and there is no way they can keep on top of the latest tricks and plug-is n stuff as they are barely even able to remember what they have learned. Over the last year I have been teaching night classes at the same school. Most the students have come to realize the value of taking every class possibly from an adjunct proffessor (a teacher who works full-time in the field) because we can keep up on everything the full-time faculty can't. the problem I have run into, is, The full-time teacher doesn"t have the time to take my class, and probably never will. I am guessing this is the category your proffesor falls under. Radiosity was the cat's pajamas when it first came out, when your prof. learned it. But does he have the time to keep up with everything that has been released sinse then? I doubt it, so he covers up by saying what he knows is what is best.

 

Try looking into vray free and show him how easy it is to use. Attached is a breif outline I use to get my students started with vray free. Your teacher will be blown away at how much faster it is than scanline.

 

LOL, are the two Brians gona have a come-back?

 

hehe

Don't be making personal blows.

.

[Koper]

any resemblance between your mathematician and this other hairy dude?

[Koper]

 

 

Don't be making personal blows.

 

Sorry for the OT

 

I don't think that was any personal blow or any blow any nature. They are the best in what they do and the comment was meant to deflect the teaching comment in a good light hearted manner (as it also was in a good light hearted manner i feel)