On teaching 3ds max

[abisan]

Hi, Im currently teaching a bunch of 4 students 3ds Max. Now these guys are from the Autocadd arena, and have years of experience in Autocadd.

The problem is they continue to bug me daily about 3d max's accuracy. They are so used to the high accuracy levels in Autocadd, that they can't understand why 3dMax cannot create a line and then modify it to accurate measurements.

For eg: In max, you can create a line that has a height of x feet, if you use the keyboard entry parameters. BUT , after creating the line , if you go to the modify panel , you cannot alter the line to say a lower measurement, or like if you wan't to chop off a few feet. This is easily done in Autocadd.

 

I told them the following:

1) That max is NOT a cadd software, and there are other ways to create a line with a required measurement.

2) Max is a visuallisation software , which does not waste its resources on 64 decimal accuracy that autocadd has.

 

Can anyone pls give me some more arguments?

Appreciated!

[clauco]

Sure friend, what i usually say when someone compare autocad with 3dsmax is : "...If you see it well, that´s because it´s welldone, that´s the main concept of 3d packages...".

 

Good luck!

[BobM]

I tell my ex AutoCAD students if you still want that accuracy then draw in AutoCAD then import.

 

Students who come straight to Max it is not a problem as the do not know any different

[abisan]

Thank you Clauco, and Bob, thats pretty much what we need to tell them.

There's also this undercurrent of 'AutoCadd is much more superior to 3D max' kind of thing going on, that nags at you a mite.

This makes you look like a Kindergarten Drawing and painting teacher, while they come off like astronautical space being kind of thingy!!

 

The students who come straight off to max are better off, true. From my experience I've found that they also finish thier assignments given. Not so these working Cadd people, they don't learn fast, nor complete their assignments. They have this block, including that of shortcut keys being confusing..that prevents them from learning more creatively.

[Justin Hunt]

check out Ted boardmans blog, he does a whole stint on the accuacey in Max. I always say that no-one is going to build or extract the working drawings from max.

 

Ask them to do a rendering in Acad, then sit back while they stuggle.

 

JHV

[abisan]

Thanks Justin, I will check into Ted Boardman's blog.

I think I found the solution to my problem: Autodesk Architectural Desktop!

Lol! Tell them to use it a big sort of plug-in for Max!! That should do it.

 

I downloaded this bunch of brochures of ADT that Im going to shove into thier hands. That ought to do the trick.

[pirallah]

I learned Autocad before I started using max and I could say that the issue of accuracy really bugged me. It was a big block, and I guess the product of the Autocad 'mindset'. I realized later that each program requires a different mindset for one to be able to learn efficiently.

 

I started out again, abandoned any prejudice about creating and modifying objects in a software program. It was tough, but I started to appreciate Max's power once I started editing 3d objects and rendering them.

 

So, IMHO, if you want your students to appreciate max, start fresh, and emphasize 3d modeling and rendering rather than drafting. Show them renders, modifiers, animations, lighting and rendering features - things that are not normally available in acad.

[abisan]

Thanks Pirallah, its true that CADD people have a block going , when they step foot into Max. I think its more like brains numbed by an over dose of analtycal left brain thinking, finds the going difficult , when it comes to looking at things from a creative pov. (Creative, whats dat? Can we measure it accurately? ) Lol.

 

Well, I really can't set up a song and dance show for them, with girls and lights, so they need to loosen up. like you said.

There's only so much you can do while teaching. And student mind-set analysis is pushing it too deep, than the budget can handle.

 

They need to do a bit homework too. When they decided to go-in for a class in 3dMax, obviously visualisation was what they had in mind. But when they actually DO get down to learning Max, they suddenly come up with this block.

 

 

I'll have to my best I guess. Be as technical as they, and be professional about my attitude to visualization.

[pirallah]

A song and dance might actually convince them ...

 

I think it well help immensely if you ask them to check out this forums and the corresponding galleries...and others as well...vismasters, etc...it helped me lots!

[abisan]

Asking my students to check out CGArchitect is the very first thing I do! Its part of the introductary classes I conduct. Also included are some architectural video show reels, a presentation of some of my own work, a live Max demo on making exciting stuff, things that get them hooked!

 

But the devil takes over when they sit down to building thangs!!

 

Ahh...guess I'll ride it over.......I always do!

[Claudio Branch]

I love what I am hearing in this post...

 

I worked on AutoCAD for 5 years and then moved up to Pro/Engineer for the next 7. When I jumped into 3D Viz using Max, I was losing my mind daily because of the ingrained "accuracy mindset" I had cultivated.

 

It took me awhile to shift my attitude and I reminded myself constantly that I had CHOSEN to take up a new direction in my career.

 

IMHO, with this type of work a level of accuracy is important, but accuracy works in the service of human perception.

 

Now, I'm just concerned with the ACCURACY of my created ILLUSIONS...

[abisan]

Claudio, interesting read. I agree with you that accuracy works in the service of human perception.

 

I tell my students, look, Max was not created to do architectural renderings in the first place. And, if you're doing face, and character modelling, you don't ever NEED to measure facial features down to the last mm. Max is about visuallizing what's in your mind! Its about music, movement, rhythm, motion, beauty, etc.,

 

ITs right down a very very powerful programme. Imagine what Da Vinci and Michaelangelo could have done with it!

 

I would love to deal with them on a much more deeper level of understanding. But I am no psychatrist. (also playing meditational music while teaching Max won't help the issue Im afraid!) And I do not have the resources to deal with them on that level.

 

Accuracy does works in the service of human perception.

 

For example: Why do you need accuracy in your CAD work?

>To make sure the client doesn't complain about your work/

>means your work continues to be above grade/

> which means you are personally satisfied about your own proffessionalism/

>which means you get your markets share of income/

>which means you don't need to worry about money/

>which means you can get to live, at least to a certain extent , the kind of life you always wanted to lead/

> which means life is better for you, and you are happy.

Now happiness itself , is a CREATIVE thing, isnt it?

 

So , ultimately , it all boils down to the fact that accuracy does serve the creative end-results. and life itself, although analtycal in certain aspects, IS mostly creative! God wouldnt have created this world if he was purely analtycal! Too much a waste of resources!

[clauco]

Another interest thing that concern to architectural modeling is to ask to the students if they could build with real materials what they draw in terms of accuracy. I think that 3D packages are even more accurate than the building proccess (I repeat, almost only in architectural fields)

[abisan]

Lol! Thats a good one Clauco!! Surely every building will be a few mm off here n there...!!

[neko]

abisan

 

what seems to be missing in this discussion is an understanding of the strong architectural relationship between CAD data and MAX as a visualization tool.

 

you are very quick to criticize your students (architects?) without a very good idea of where they are coming from.

 

perhaps you don't have much experience with autocad or architecture, which is fine, but as someone who teaches both autocad and MAX myself, you should never stop trying to understand and listen to the students. part of the problem might be with your teaching methods.

 

i thought the first quote from 'piralla' said it best (which you mostly ignored)....

 

I learned Autocad before I started using max and I could say that the issue of accuracy really bugged me. It was a big block, and I guess the product of the Autocad 'mindset'. I realized later that each program requires a different mindset for one to be able to learn efficiently.

 

I started out again, abandoned any prejudice about creating and modifying objects in a software program. It was tough, but I started to appreciate Max's power once I started editing 3d objects and rendering them.

 

So, IMHO, if you want your students to appreciate max, start fresh, and emphasize 3d modeling and rendering rather than drafting. Show them renders, modifiers, animations, lighting and rendering features - things that are not normally available in acad.

 

sorry if this sounds a bit strong. i don't mean this in a mean-spirited way, but i know from experience that you should never ever consider yourself to be absolutely right and that your students are ignorant. students are very quick to pick up on teachers who are limited in their knowledge and experience.

[neko]

furthermore (after riding in to school)....anyone who uses autocad in an architectural environment surely would understand the importance (and relative ease) of drawing accurately.

 

it is just as easy (if not easier!) to draw with precision in autocad and this is extremely important for space planning, area calculations, dimensioning and overall design.

 

these are critical components of the architectural design process - you can make jokes about building site or construction tolerances, but inaccurate, careless CAD data is one of the biggest problems for architectural design AND visualization.

[neko]

this is going to start looking like a rant, but i thought i would share my approach to dealing with this autocad/MAX issue.

 

i have approx. 150-200 students every year who i teach two 12 week CAD courses too. the year after that, a percentage of them (50) take a course in "computer graphics for architecture" which studies 3D autocad, MAX and a little illustrator/photoshop.

 

the first week (or two)in max i try to demonstrate different methods of using autocad data with max. firstly, you can model in autocad (which they learn as well) and link or import, using max primarily for materials, lighting, rendering.

 

secondly, you can import 2D linework and extrude, modify and edit in max.

 

thirdly, you can do it all in max (which you obviously prefer).

 

the important point is that they are all valid ! it is up to the individual to decide what best works for them. i think it is critically important that you demonstrate all three methods and let them develop their own ideas and workflow, rather than chosing to mock them and accuse them of being 'left-brained thinking".

 

the fact that your students have access to autocad is hardly a limitation. it is a resource or tool that is an integral part of the process. if you have it - use it !

[Claudio Branch]

 

firstly, you can model in autocad (which they learn as well) and link or import, using max primarily for materials, lighting, rendering.

 

secondly, you can import 2D linework and extrude, modify and edit in max.

 

thirdly, you can do it all in max (like you obviously prefer).

 

the important point is that they are all valid ! it is up to the individual to decide what best works for them.

 

I completely agree with this approach and attitude for a teacher, a student and a practitioner.

 

My workflow is not stiff and rigid and neither are my projects.

 

On alot of my projects, I start by modeling large-scale terrains in AutoCAD with imported GIS and MicroStation data. I go as far as I can with those tools for the appropriate terrain elements involved and then import the entire file into Max for finishing up the rest of the visualization work.

 

Sometimes, I can do the whole thing in Max alone.

 

Teachers and students both, would do better to focus on the creative process (workflow) and it's development instead of which single program has the easiest buttons to use.

[3dSol]

in my opinion Max IS as accurate as Acad, it's just the mindset as someone else pointed out, of course it has diferent commands and ways to make things, but i am used to working with a lot of precision in MAX and i don't see why not

 

2 cents

[louis.cho]

I had the same problem when i started max. I learned accuracy importance in my naval architecture school but i had to drop it now.

 

Max is accurate enought for arch viz, when i import my cad drawing, i use the snap tool and my rought shape is as accurate that max. I don't see the point to go far then that.

[jvlive]

I have never formally taught, so my opinion here is from a student's point of view. like many of you here, I used autocad before I learned max. Yes, I had to struggle with the lack of "accuracy tools" in max. But like pirallah, I "abandoned my prejudices of the program". I posted here to remind us of the famous zen koan: Empty your cup:

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/emptycup.html

[abisan]

this is going to start looking like a rant, but i thought i would share my approach to dealing with this autocad/MAX issue.

 

i have approx. 150-200 students every year who i teach two 12 week CAD courses too. the year after that, a percentage of them (50) take a course in "computer graphics for architecture" which studies 3D autocad, MAX and a little illustrator/photoshop.

 

the first week (or two)in max i try to demonstrate different methods of using autocad data with max. firstly, you can model in autocad (which they learn as well) and link or import, using max primarily for materials, lighting, rendering.

 

secondly, you can import 2D linework and extrude, modify and edit in max.

 

thirdly, you can do it all in max (which you obviously prefer).

 

the important point is that they are all valid ! it is up to the individual to decide what best works for them. i think it is critically important that you demonstrate all three methods and let them develop their own ideas and workflow, rather than chosing to mock them and accuse them of being 'left-brained thinking".

 

the fact that your students have access to autocad is hardly a limitation. it is a resource or tool that is an integral part of the process. if you have it - use it !

 

I think you miss the point of the whole thread Prodham. Its not about criticizing Autocadd, or its users, nor is it about criticizing my students, which I dont.

 

Its about the mindset of habituated Cadd users , and how they adapt/don't adapt to a different environment. This is a real issue we face.

 

As for the functionality of Autocadd, again you miss the point. You dont have to rub its uses in, as I have worked with Autocadd data over the years. All my Max models start off from the Autocadd plan and elevation files.

 

So I don't see the point of you trying to emphasise the usefullness of Autocadd here, as we are not by any chance saying that Autocadd is useless, nor is anybody accusing the students .

 

I wish you had contibuted in a more concrete way, which would at least have given some pointers toward communicating the idea of a creative 3D environment to students who have been working with cadd for a long time.

[Justin Hunt]

I do find it funny when I hear how accurate Acad is, down to .0000000.... but I have lost count of how many draings where the lift shaft moves around 500mm off on each level.

 

In max accuracey is important if you are going down the GI route. As long as you madel to a measurable scale and be consistant you will have as much accuracey as you will ever need. Hell if you really wanted to you could use scientific formula to define the lenghts.

 

JHV

[abisan]

the first week (or two)in max i try to demonstrate different methods of using autocad data with max. firstly, you can model in autocad (which they learn as well) and link or import, using max primarily for materials, lighting, rendering.

 

secondly, you can import 2D linework and extrude, modify and edit in max.

 

thirdly, you can do it all in max (which you obviously prefer).

 

Actually when I made this post, all this was shown/explained to them. Included was a complete demo which imported a plan from autocadd, then developed the whole building from that plan. The said students were fully aware of the inter-operabiilty of the two softwares.

 

Mind blocks exist, whether you like it or not.

[neko]

I think you miss the point of the whole thread Prodham. Its not about criticizing Autocadd, or its users, nor is it about criticizing my students, which I dont.

 

are you serious ? go back and read your posts. you made your opinion perfectly clear many times that autocad users are rigid and 'left-brained' in their thinking. you made the statement that they do poorly in your course because they are obsessed with accuracy.

 

Thanks Pirallah, its true that CADD people have block going , when they step foot into Max. I think its more like brains numbed by an over dose of analtycal left brain thinking, finds the going difficult , when it comes to looking at things from a creative pov. (Creative, whats dat? Can we measure it accurately? ) Lol.

 

what is that statement all about then ? the point that i was making (and you missed that entirely) is that accuracy is a by-product of autocad and certainly does not make the user some kind of robot. that is what offends me about your posts.

 

As for the functionality of Autocadd, again you miss the point. You dont have to rub its uses in, as I have worked with Autocadd data over the years. All my Max models start off from the Autocadd plan and elevation files.

 

So I don't see the point of you trying to emphasise the usefullness of Autocadd here, as we are not by any chance saying that Autocadd is useless, nor is anybody accusing the students .

 

where did you previously mention that you taught them this approach ??? you didn't until i brought it up. so why do you say that i have not contributed in a more 'concrete' way to this discussion ?

 

I would love to deal with them on a much more deeper level of understanding. But I am no psychatrist. (also playing meditational music while teaching Max won't help the issue Im afraid!) And I do not have the resources to deal with them on that level.

 

Accuracy does works in the service of human perception.

 

For example: Why do you need accuracy in your CAD work?

>To make sure the client doesn't complain about your work/

>means your work continues to be above grade/

> which means you are personally satisfied about your own proffessionalism/

>which means you get your markets share of income/

>which means you don't need to worry about money/

>which means you can get to live, at least to a certain extent , the kind of life you always wanted to lead/

> which means life is better for you, and you are happy.

Now happiness itself , is a CREATIVE thing, isnt it?

 

So , ultimately , it all boils down to the fact that accuracy does serve the creative end-results. and life itself, although analtycal in certain aspects, IS mostly creative! God wouldnt have created this world if he was purely analtycal! Too much a waste of resources!

 

your opinion of autocad and it's users seems pretty obvious and betrays a lack of understanding about the program and ignorance of its application in architecture.

 

I wish you had contibuted in a more concrete way, which would at least have given some pointers toward communicating the idea of a creative 3D environment to students who have been working with cadd for a long time.

 

would that be when i explained the entire course curriculum to you ? where i explained how i deal with the transition between autocad and MAX in an architectural environment ?

 

i believe that the point of this thread was to point out the difficulties that autocad users have when dealing with an application like MAX, but your preconceived opinions and condecending attitude towards your students leaves you open to criticism. you have no right to criticize autocad, or the people who use it, as somehow creatively or intellectually stunted.

 

as an instructor, you should know better than that.