please help me in modelling (3d studio max) of ornamentall grill

[nodar1978]

Hello Dear forum members, I need your help, I'm goging to make a 3d model in 3d studio max, First time I'm going to do so difficult modell, this is an ornamental (fretwork) grill, please could you give me the link of tutorials which can help me to make model of this grill, and how do you think how much I have to ask for this model?

Thank to everyone

Nodar

[notamondayfan]

theres loads of detail in that, so if your going to model it, id sugest a mixture of poly modelling, bump maps and displacement maps. do you have any other reference images? also how close up will you see the model?

[nodar1978]

Thank you for your reply and advices, unfortunately I've not got any other images yet, but thay will send to me more photos later, when I'll start work on it. they need to make a 3d digital model, as I can undarstend they need very good quality, becous they have to see it from all the views

this is a part of letter from my customers:We only need to make a digital document to give the correct coordinates to the computer in order to make a mould. Can you make an estimate of the time you would spent on this?

and one more question, how do you think, how long it should take normally?

thank you very much

Nodar

[Guest nazcaLine]

i would draw every "side" with closed splines (OR draw it in autocad and import it) and extrude, then poly modeling refinement and finally meshsmoothing.

About how long it would take, i have no idea, i've never modeled something so complex.

Good luck!

 

Eduardo

[notamondayfan]

so your making a 3d model in order for another company to produce a real grill?

[Koper]

so your making a 3d model in order for another company to produce a real grill?

 

to buy his model(s) and use it in production

 

can you maybe tell us were you got the refr. from?

[nodar1978]

Thank you very much Eduardo for your advice, I hope it will help me

Nodar

[nodar1978]

to Koper:

the picture you see is a real model, this is a photo, but they need 3d model. why are you asking were I get the refr from?

[PAWUK]

Ouch….

 

If this is your first max modelling project then you’re going to have your back against the wall, this is a very complex form.

 

There are tutorials out there that may help but a lot depends on the rest of the images you receive. And I would suggest you try and get hold of the real thing, photos won’t give you sizes of all the parts or the way one part interacts with another. For instance the image shown could be 10cm wide or 10m wide.

 

Just a side step if it’s a small piece and you can get hold of it why don’t you get it 3d scanned, Roland have a 3D scanner that takes object to a max 250mm dia x 406mm high

 

If you have to model it something you need to be asking (if you haven’t already) is what format do they need the files back as. And how do they intend to construct the final object. Will they be laser cutting flat panels and welding these together?

 

I don’t mean to sound negative but if you are new to this sort of thing you need the time to work through it without the stress of an imminent deadline

[RodT]

Armed with just photos it would be very hard to develop a model suitable for transfer to to a mold. I could envision many hours of your effort only to have the client come back saying it wasn't good enough. Pawuk's advice is very sound IMHO. This is a job for 3D scan. Good luck.

[Koper]

could have fooled me, i thought it was 3d:o

 

why i ask where you got the refr. pic, i missed the post where you quoted the client, and thought somebody modeled it and just wanted to know who.

[nodar1978]

To Pawuk: thank you very much for edvice. this is not my first modelling project but this is my first so difficult project I'm going to do. could I cann't get the real thing because of unfortunatly we are in a different countries. how do you think how much can I charge them if I'll finish this model (of course) ?

[louis.cho]

There gonna make a mold with your model, you will need very good precision modeling. Don't use displacment map since it's have no effect on geometry and their computer can't use it.

I agree it's a very complex geometry but it's possible, just give them the right time estimate or you'll be in the ...

 

I would begin with the square frame of the top and extrude the 4 corners. After it, make some extrude and go connect it with the corner bars. Begin with the very rough shape and improve the shape of extrusions after each step. After all, make the fine details. It's will be easier if you have access to ZBrush

 

better luck

[nodar1978]

There gonna make a mold with your model, you will need very good precision modeling. Don't use displacment map since it's have no effect on geometry and their computer can't use it.

I agree it's a very complex geometry but it's possible, just give them the right time estimate or you'll be in the ...

 

I would begin with the square frame of the top and extrude the 4 corners. After it, make some extrude and go connect it with the corner bars. Begin with the very rough shape and improve the shape of extrusions after each step. After all, make the fine details. It's will be easier if you have access to ZBrush

 

better luck

To: Louis

Thank you for your advice, Louis, how do you think how much can I charge my clients for this model, if I'll finish it?

[PAWUK]

First of all it depends if you’re doing this sort of thing to make a living, in other words your main source of income.

 

If it’s just a side line and you intend it to be a portfolio piece then you will be in a better position. As already pointed out by RodT in short you could be on a hiding to nothing. Because at the end of the day the chances are they won’t pay up until they receive something they can work from.

 

In which case you can afford to take a hit down the line if you find the task to complex with the reference material they provide and can’t complete the job. And by the looks of it this is going to be one hell of a job to get right to there expectations.

 

I know what you’re thinking….still hasn’t answered my question ‘how much’, to be honest not a clue… I’m not in the model making business but a 3d designer and visualiser but the principles of starting a project with all the relevant info in place works for all sectors. And to be honest I can’t see you will get that from just photos especially if they are like the one you have posted…… You need scale.

 

You need to see what other info they send and what there expectations are.

[louis.cho]

I already found this on the cgtalk.com forum and it was pretty interresting. It is for rendering work first but I guess it's can be modified to general work, no? Just change the 'rendering' term by 'working'!

 

 

A. Determine how much your equipment and rendering licenses cost (remember maintenance).

B. Estimate how many hours your system will be rendering on billable jobs over X years.

C. Estimate how much each hour of rendering the electricity will cost.

 

(A/B)+C = D

 

D. Base Cost per hour

E. Figure how much it will cost you to replace hardware each X years.

F. Decide how much you think is fair to add to your rendering capacity each X years.

G. Determine how much profit is fair per hour.

 

D+(E/B)+(F/B)+G = H

 

H. Billable charge per hour.

I. Estimate how many hours it will take to render the project on your setup.

J. Estimate the amount of administration and render-sitting hours you will spend on the project.

K. Know your production hourly rate

 

(H*I)+(J*K) = L

 

L = Your Quote

 

I don't know if it will do the job for you but it's can help.

good luck

[notamondayfan]

its too early for maths!!

 

regarding modelling, what does your client require exactly? i havent really heard of manufactures using 3ds max, instead they would use cad based programs.

 

there are several ways to 3d scan objects if you can get hold of the real grill. then that may give you a starting price when it comes to costing.

[shaneis]

Are you experienced in subdivision modelling? If not, learn it now. Trying to create this as a polymesh or a multipatch NURBS surface would be a topology nightmare. SubD's will create a consistant mesh...very dense, but consistant. When modelling for rapid protoyping (or similar), the main consideration is a clean, even and constant mesh. If your mesh isn't right, they'll keep sending it back until you get it clean.

 

Try ZBrush, Modo, Mudbox - any SubD modelling app. Go to this page http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/blogger/

 

As for quoting, guaranteed that this job will blow-out. Don't be fooled, this is a complex job, your clients should be charged accordingly.

[PAWUK]

its too early for maths!!

 

regarding modelling, what does your client require exactly? i havent really heard of manufactures using 3ds max, instead they would use cad based programs.

 

there are several ways to 3d scan objects if you can get hold of the real grill. then that may give you a starting price when it comes to costing.

 

Been down that avenue with him , he cant get hold of the original the client is from another country

[jadhav333]

1st and foremost, you will need a better set of photos than the one provided.

 

You will require orthogonal shots of each side that is at least 6 photos at high resolutions.

 

In addition, you will need to see each sides from an angle to get an idea of the depth of the detailing.

 

You can place the orthogonal images as a BG in the viewport and trace out a rough sqaure section polymodel of each side independent of each other.

 

You can later add more detail using polymodeling techniques.

 

Once all sides are done, you can align them in a box shape and attach them together and do some more polymodelling to finish the joined parts.

 

About the costing, that is very difficult to say. It all depends on your resource expenditure as discussed earlier, your profit margins, your hourly rate, no of hours required to do the job( This will vary from person to person depending on his/her skillsets). So you will have to take a call there.

 

Whatever you decide in terms of no. of hours required, make sure to add some buffer time. You never know, the machine may conk off halfway through or the internet service goes bust just when you want to send across the file to ur client and you may have to rush to another block/suburb to find a cyber cafe .

 

To my knowledge, the .stl format is a preferred format used to construct / print 3d moulds from actual 3d files. It stands for stereolithography. But u will have to check this with the client. 3dsmax does support export to .stl & .iges (which is another cad format popularly used by mechanical engineers)

 

This is the best I can help.

 

By the way, the reference photo looks more like a 3d render to me.. since the BG is very uniformly flat and even the perspective is very flat. If, indeed its a real photo from a real grill and the client has the grill with them, they will have no issues giving you multiple photos from all sides.. Without the additional images mentioned above, It will be almost impossible to come up with a precision model.

 

But what I would assume is that the client has picked up the image from some competitor and is trying to reverse engineer the grill by preparing a 3d model and making a mould out of it. But thats just my guess.

 

whew... Hope this helps..

[PAWUK]

But what I would assume is that the client has picked up the image from some competitor and is trying to reverse engineer the grill by preparing a 3d model and making a mould out of it. But thats just my guess.

 

I had that fought as well

[nodar1978]

first time I use the CGarchitect forum and its unbelievable, so many people helps me, I'm really happy, and thank you very much for your help guys

[ITryMyBest]

In no way am I trying to sound negative just realistic. There really aren't enough photographs the client can send you to completely reproduce this grill perfectly. The first problem is that everyone thought the supplied photo was a rendering. The photos need to have some sort of scale object. You need to know exactly how big the flower is on the front, how deep it is, the curvature of the leaves.

 

If the client is trying to reverse engineer this thing, they will not be happy with anything that is not an exact replica, then refuse to pay. Also, the modeling will be a ridiculous challenge simply because in order for them to use your 3D model to construct the grill, you will have to model it perfectly. Meaning, you will have to put the 'STL check' modifier on the single mesh this thing will have to be and confirm there are no errors.

 

In my opinion, it will be cheaper for you in terms of time and headache to actually pay to have it shipped to you (even if it is from another country) and have it 3D scanned. The main reason I am saying this is simply because the mesh has to be perfect, both inside, out, top, bottom, every which way, and I am positive no matter how many images you are sent, you will be modeling and realize you don't have something you need. Also (repeating myself now) every single image needs to have some sort of scale object or ruler included. And since this needs to be a perfect replica of the grill the ruler also needs to be perfectly orthogonal to the grill object and camera in most cases.

 

To sum up, think of how many things need to be perfect and exact while in your model. I think just pay to have it shipped, have it scanned, then ship it back. Shipping of course included in your cost. Also, ask the 3D scanner what formats they can give you, make sure it isn't some off the wall proprietary 3D file. Check if they have a previously scanned object they can show the file so you can check the integrity of the mesh.

 

Bottom line, COST = Shipping (both ways) + 3D scanning + your estimated time involvement based on mesh integrity + whatever I'm forgetting

 

You modeling it is a good exercise, but I can easily see the client not paying. You will have invested way too much time working on this grill and this is not a model that you are just going to knock out one night. There are just too many reasons this can go wrong modeling in Max. Anything being off 1mm and the client can legally not pay. Not okay with me.

 

I know it was long, good job if you made it all the way though.