Brian Cassil Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 "Keep in mind that the new features compare to VIZ 4, not to MAX" Intendo rapaz! The light lister is a handy tool. I would consider a number of free scripts to be as handy, but they are FREE! Not a major upgrade, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bret Bullough Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I agree with Brian, as I read through the feature list I was anything but impressed. Does any one know of a reseller that offers and upgrade from Viz to Max? I have been frustrated by not being able to open Max6 files in Viz. And while 2005 has caught up to Max6 (for file campatibility) how long before Viz is left behind again? Brian are you teaching at the Uof U or SLCC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcahunak Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Alex, where is this comparison chart between VIZ and MAX on the ADSK site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abicalho Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Alex, where is this comparison chart between VIZ and MAX on the ADSK site? I personally do not know. I know nothing about the marketing side of things, let alone who handles websites, etc. There's always a "comments" section there and I'd suggest sending comments through it. Alexander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abicalho Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 "Keep in mind that the new features compare to VIZ 4, not to MAX" The light lister is a handy tool. I would consider a number of free scripts to be as handy, but they are FREE! Not a major upgrade, in my opinion. This is one of the new features. One of. Not the main reason why you would upgrade. If you go to the Autodesk website, the list of new features is larger than what you mentioned, and yes, I did notice somethings are missing in the list - Arch Material, Render to Texture, HDR, Unwrap, RNR in Backburner, among others are not listed at the Autodesk website. I personally suggest you try it (yes, there's a trial) before you pass a judgment based on a feature list you read. If you're using MAX 6 already, you know the difference between MAX 6 and VIZ 4. It's not peanuts... It's a large difference. Alexander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 is there a price for the upgrade available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 oops ..found it ~400usd.. that's ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Wow! Someone else in SLC! Hi Bret. I teach a night course at SLCC. During the day I work at Arch Nexus. Are you an architect, viz artist, or student? Rather than hijack this thread, send me an e-mail sometime. bcassil@archnexus.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Light lister - even more absurd to be a highlighted feature on an expensive upgrade. Architectural materials - Well, I suppose some people can make use of these. Personally I prefer to make my own materials using other methods. Light Assemblies? - (allowing manufacturers to assemble digital lumineres). I'm not certain what this is really, but I'm sure it's nothing I'm interested in. Sounds like using real world data with photometric lights. Render to texture - I haven't tried this in max yet and have no idea about the reliability of this. So, could be good but I'm skeptical. I'm not a MAX or VIZ user, but I still read these threads--always want to know if I'm missing anything I shouldn't in my software. What is really interesting about the above list is that all of these are features that have always been in Lightscape. Does anyone know if the splitting of VIZ to the architectural division of ADSK will bring Rod Recker (founder/creator of Lightscape) from Discreet or leave him in MAX? That could be an important 'detail'. Light assemblies in Lightscape mean a collection of polygon geometry and light a emmiter into one editable, isolatable 'object'. It acts like a block so a master controls all copies. This is very useful, so if that is what VIZ is doing it is to be applauded, not dismissed. Architectural materials--why do Lightscape renderings look so good? Their architectural materials. Again, if that is what you are getting you should rejoice. If you get the LS fast raytracing you will have a fine product that COULD actually bury the rotting corpse of Lightscape. (A product that still produces all my income). How is the interface/workflow of VIZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 How is the interface/workflow of VIZ? We should ask Fran that question. Sounds like she's been using it already as a beta tester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "How is the interface/workflow of VIZ?" As compared to Lightscape? WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 "How is the interface/workflow of VIZ?" As compared to Lightscape? WDA Yeah, for me. But more generally for everyone else. I have seen too many apps with great feature sets and useless workflow. I tried 3Dstudio v1 when it came out and hated the non-architectural workflow, so that's the last version I used. The Lightscape workflow is close to perfect, another reason I cling to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelo Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Does anyone know if the splitting of VIZ to the architectural division of ADSK will bring Rod Recker (founder/creator of Lightscape) from Discreet or leave him in MAX? That could be an important 'detail'. [end quote] I've been bummed and a bit annoyed at the "feature list" that has been listed for VIZ 2005. However, I do feel sorry for the people involved with development. They seem to be squeezed from both sides (ADT/AEC Autodesk team and Discreet's MAX team). The outcome is that all VIZ does is take a few chunks of code from the latest MAX version and possibley add a few minor "Architectural" features, and that's it. There is no revolutionary change that gives the product a dedicated user base. Light assemblies in Lightscape mean a collection of polygon geometry and light a emmiter into one editable, isolatable 'object'. It acts like a block so a master controls all copies. This is very useful, so if that is what VIZ is doing it is to be applauded, not dismissed. [end quote] There are assemblies in VIZ 4 (which include the block and the light source) so I'm curious as to what is new. Architectural materials--why do Lightscape renderings look so good? Their architectural materials. Again, if that is what you are getting you should rejoice. [end quote] Definitely something to be happy about. (However, it should have been addressed as a service pack, when parts of Lightscape where scabbed on to viz with no materials that worked with radiosity) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Here are my comments from the peanut gallery: - VIZ 2005 seems to me to be more like Max 6 minus a few chunks, not VIZ 4 with some chunks added. If I'm not mistaken, the goal is to keep VIZ and Max file compatibility and the most logical way to do that is for them to share the same core. I don't know if that is what is happening or not. - VIZ 2005 is tailored for the design viz industry and is strongly aligned with AutoCAD, ADT, MDT and Inventor. Max 6 has the same design capability, but also caters to people in the special effects and gaming industries. I personally like the idea of having a product designed specifically for what I do. - VIZ 2005 has a smaller feature set than Max 6, but it also costs less to purchase, subscribe to and/or upgrade. I've worked with both VIZ 2005 and Max 6 and can't tell the difference. I don't need the features that VIZ doesn't have anyway. If a firm needs things like particle systems and sub-object animation, they would need Max 6 and one would hope that they command larger fees to cover the higher cost. - I don't like it when I have to go back to VIZ 4 to do something (ie to maintain file compatability with someone else). - VIZ 2005 is extremely stable. - VIZ 2005 has improved file linking and is compatible with the latest versions of AutoCAD and ADT (and others in the Autodesk family). - Plug-ins that work with Max 6 work with VIZ 2005. - Files created in Max 6 can be opened in VIZ 2005, minus the Max-specific objects. - Regathering has been enhanced to include Adaptive Sampling, which can reduce regather time signicantly while maintaining quality results (if tweaked properly). - VIZ 2005 has the Architectural Material type that users of Lightscape will be familiar with. I like it a lot. - Did I mention how much I like the Architectural Material? - I can't say how the VIZ workflow and interface compares to Lightscape because it's been too long since I've used LS in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelfoZ Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Viz 2005 radiosity is the same as Max 6, same speed, etc ? animated Textures, Ie. water(noise) ? Stairs,windows,trees r the same as max 6 or have another features ? architectural materials, hare the same as max6 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Ernest and All, Back in late 2000 I got LS with Viz3. I found lightscape to be much more like a "CAD" program, DataCad to be specific. Way rigid compared to AutoCad 2000+. But AutoCad makes sense to me. I used lightscape for radiosity until august and aquiring viz4. LS and viz3 had full compability and the power of both worlds. The CAD to VIZ to LS to Viz was a little round about, but the results are good. MAX6 supports LS full radiosity solution just as Viz3. This support may ease a change into an exclusive max platform workflow. Even the LS materials and brightness contrast controls within the material. Architectural Workflow- Viz4 is a suitable replacement for LS as a GI (very loose use of term) based rendering system. What does change is that it is object based, a modifer accesses the faces and elements, per object or applied to a group. So the workflow oriented to the Processing parameters is gone-filtering by opening, double sided..... And so is the poke and hope meshing parameters, Max Rad is actually measured by an understandable scale. The general functions are there but accessed differently. The radiosity meshing tessellation is tri face in Max/Viz, rather than quad face in LS, making it more forgiving of geometry. At the same time the "finite" LS controls are gone in place of a faster Radiosity. Viz5 and Max6 has adapitive sampling-a finite control. From an "industry" overview Viz/Max is a direct replacement for LS in the workflow. From the Long time LS users standpiont, it's worth the move to Viz5. But that comfortable assured feeling will be missing for a while. Many similarities, many differences, many more possibilites. Ernest, for example, could use the render elements such as Z-depth, Specular, Background, Reflection, Shadow for post production work. I think in the end the viz renderer being part of ADT, allows Viz4 & beyond to be focused on the advanced illustration needs of the AEC community and not a one size fits all solution. But all of the workflow fully integrated from line drawings to full blown Max based particle flow cinematic aninmation of a sewer plant, is the key for AutoDesk and anybody in that workflow. And all pre 64 bit- that will change things- for the best we all hope. I did'nt want to ramble, but the comparison is like a tomato-is it friut or vegetable. The simple truth is who cares, you either learn to like um or don't eat um. Have an orange instead. I would highly suggest a test drive. The tutorials are good, this forum can be very helpful. Be aware of the MR "photon mapping", I'm sure it's good but if the documentation set is like Max6 & MR, spend your 30 days exploring radiosity and the good fit in your particular workflow. My only real complaint about AutoDesk and Discreet,is the very poor documentation for Mental Ray. WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Ernest, i upgraded two years ago from lightscape to viz4. ..i still render interiors with lightscape, but when it comes to exteriors we use vray as renderengine. For some reasons autodesk doesn't learned from the radioray desaster some years ago and uses a somehow optimized version of that useless radiosity. There is no speed advantage on singleproc machines over lightscape if you use it for big RL scenes (and not weekend scenes) and on the other hand your gfx hardware have to handle much more polygones then a common lightscape solution. Browsing the model for a presentation like in lightscape is not really easy, because you will miss at least the shifting of the vp. Blocks or luminares are defined with instanced object, which works well... but not if you want to replace them with other grouped objects. ..so if you place some placeholderblocks for lights in ACAD and want to replace it in viz with a luminare you can't do that.... you can replace them with lights only , but not with a luminareblock. If you want to change the processing parameter for a single face of an object, you have to detatch this face first, because every radiosity, light or visibility setting is objectbased. ..and even changing the process setting for an object is not directly accessable. viz2005 will have the architectural material, which is basicaly the lightscape shader model. ..we have tested it in max6 ..and believe it or not, but the rendertime of a imported lightscape scene with architectural material is 1-2minutes faster then lightscape ...but still needs 50minutes With standard max materials it was 12 (!) minutes. BTW.. the reflections with this architectural material doesn't have nice AA like the std raytracer. have i forgotten something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skogskalle Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Im currently working with 3dsmax4.2, without any 3rd party renderers, and Im starting to feel a bit left behind, techniqally.... so its time for an upgrade. Im thinking of VIZ2005, but Im not sure... so maybe you boys n girls could be so nice and answer some questions I have. I know Mental Ray is included in VIZ2005, but which version is it? Ive read some amazing stuff about the new MentalRay 3.3 combined with the latest NVIDIA graphic hardware... (cutting rendertimes in half or less by rendering via the graphic hardware instead of via the CPU...). So does Mental Ray 3.3 come with VIZ2005? Do you think Ive any chance of getting some kind of "upgrade price reduction" when switching from MAX4.2 to VIZ2005? What about animated textures in VIZ? (without them its kinda impossible to do realistic water surfaces in animations) thanks in advance! //Kalle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 In any VIZ you can't animate parameters of objects, modifiere, materials, maps ... You only can animate transormations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 Hello, I got the software today. It loads faster and it seems to render faster. However, they did away with some of the standard icons I use. Now my workflow will be affected. I hope they could improve the programs without having to get rid of previous advances we all collectively have achieved. It takes a while to convince the developers to do some of the changes we request. Then 3 version laters in order to accomodate the new request they turn off the "OLD" features we requested. I guess the paradox is how to turn on new features without overwhelming the already overtaxed RAM and CPU's. Otherwise, it looks OK. I know the guys in Montreal work very hard to get these programs to work right and they are also users who have to live with the software. Thanks Elliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skogskalle Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 seismograph - ok, I thought so.... but how does this work? Could someone write a script or a plugin that makes it possible to use some kind of animated noise effects, OR is there a limitation in the VIZ core that makes animated stuff totally impossible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 There are workarounds for animated noise effects. There was a tutorial put out by Autodesk last year about how to animate a flag....I don't know where to find it now, but I'm sure that someone has it. Also, http://www.vizdepot.com has a tutorial on how to animate water. For the most part though, they took the animatable features out of Viz because most CGarchitects don't need it, and if they do, they buy MAX. -Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skogskalle Posted April 22, 2004 Share Posted April 22, 2004 "There are workarounds for animated noise effects..." thats all I wanted to hear! thanks alot! I have Max now, and its great with all its animation capabilities, but Im gonna go with VIZ in the future... MAX is simply too expensive for me =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychoscorpic Posted April 23, 2004 Share Posted April 23, 2004 The main thing that interests me is a better Render Engine than the Radiosity one in VIZ4. Mental Ray seems very promising, although I haven't seen/tried it, and hear it has a steep learning curve. The results, though, seem stunning. It's taken me until now to get results I'm truly happy with as regards photo-realism out of VIZ 4, so steep learning curves seem part of the GI bag. Anyone got more details about the Mental Ray shipped with VIZ5? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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