Jeff Mottle Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 This is hot off the presses. I personally don't see the logic in this as VIZ 4 is now identical to MAX 6. (Meaning that MAX 6 has all of VIZ 4 functionality) Why develop yet another version of VIZ if you are/were pushing MAX6 as the new arch viz solution? I can think of only one reason and that is money and the fear that VIZ users will not like the upgrade path to MAX. I have a better idea. Ship max with core funtionality and have AEC, Character animation, gaming addons. Oh well that is my 2 cents. http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/newsfeed.asp?nid=1531 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgarcia Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 lol...I guess those fellas on the Viz4 newsgroup raised enough hell for a press release. I agree with what you say Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ismael Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Personally I disagre with the two cents and with your agreement. Not everybody has that kind of money to jump from Viz to Max. My first renderer was Lightscape and from there I bought unto the Viz 4 idea. The first stopped and the next was about to, also. This news are encouraging to a lot of people. I will be heading to the wishlist section soon... Ismael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 I guess in the end if all the clients are happy that is what really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermi Bertran Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Hi Jeff, Certainly for the MAX user viewpoint it may appear as unnecessary, and then agree with you. But may be that from a VIZ user poitn of view it is reassuring their product has a future, and yes differenciated pricing was probably a reason to create VIZ from max in the first place, and may still be, to keep it. May be some more effort, but everybody happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermi Bertran Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 LOL Had I seen your reply to Ismael, I could have saved mine to you, I am too slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 c'mon Jeff... what do you suggest viz4 users? i can tell you what i miss with viz what *even* max5 has.. .some radiosity features like adaptive regathering or bake mesh to texture or even bake radiosity to vertex color... Jeff was bought by AD??? cool pig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 HeHeHe, I told you so, there is a future for viz! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Now they need to work on a fix for the ADT2004 file linking problem in the meantime. That would make me happy. -Chad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 Jeff was bought by AD??? No I was not bought by Autodesk, but I guess to me it makes more sense for everyone to be using the same program or at least one, or two as may be the case now, that are rock solid at tranfering data between the each other without having compatability issues (This is getting better though). Also consider this, the developers for MAX and VIZ are one and the same. This mean that their time now has to be divided which means less features each release. I think that is what bothers me the most, but as I mentioned earlier happy customers are a good thing too. Unhappy customers = less sales and even less features. [ October 03, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Mottle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted October 3, 2003 Author Share Posted October 3, 2003 HeHeHe, I told you so, there is a future for viz!A few months ago there almost wasn't one, and was why the word was that MAX 6 was going to be the be all end all solution. But things seem to change fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnel Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 My best guess is that this is just all part of marketing strategy. Its all about money, money, money, money and finally money. Unhappy client = no money Happy client = more money common denominator is MONEY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard McCarthy Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I agree, it's all about pricing. MAX is the "deluxe" version of VIZ. But since MAX is pretty expensive for small studio, autodesk tap into this and made VIZ just the right price range for this particular market. (or is it us architects are all budget conscience cheapskate? I really don't know why autodesk continue to put it's weight behind support for ADT and autoCAD...while negelecting the support for Revit. But there is something about no mentioning of Revit in it's "Architectural Visualisation Solution" that kinda bothers me. I certainly hope this is not a sign that autodesk will eventually kill Revit like it kill Lightscape.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 In my opinion, Autodesk took a serious look at how many subscription holders there were at this time and realized that if they were to provide an upgrade path to Max 6 for all the subscriptions for Viz4 currently in effect, they would lose a lot of money. I think the introduction of Viz5 is a stalling tactic to wait out everyone on a subscription. Then when most have expired they will announce a new upgrade path to Max 6 or 7. This could be a wrong guess, and I will see evidence of this when April rolls around and I am offered a new subscription at a reasonable price. Jack Talsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seismograph Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 I never saw viz as the smaller brother of max, because viz *was* different with features like layer, file linking ,AEC objects... but with the designextensions for max, AD screw some things up. It's now logialy for AD to merge the userbase since there are only few differences, but i never would buy a crossupgrade to max for 2500euro ..which is more than the price for viz. That's my point, but i'm sure many viz user thinks the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 I agree with Jeff's 2 cents. They are going to lose a huge share of the market, namely to Cinema and Lightwave, is they keep Max6 on as an integral package. The modular package is the way to go. I don't understand it, honestly, except, perhaps a little naivete on Discreet's part. For now, they have a loyal following because they've been the standard, but in the future it will be hard to justify paying for Character Studio, Reactor, etc., when a studio may never use them (I've never used either). Even MR, I mean, I have Stage-1, I'd rather save a few hundred bucks than shell out for MR! So they will lose customers, over time, unless they address this issue. All it takes is some familiarity of studios (ie practice) to be comfortable enough to switch and they'll lose a whole market. For now, I like Max, but if they don't catch on to the demands of a profession such as this, they will price themselves well out of a growing studios budget. Then we've got Bentley's Generative program that looks really promising. It's true parametric modeling, from the article in Arch Record. Not Revit-like, but real stuff. Morphosis is currently testing it (I know Mayne's has always complained about why software cant' cut sections and they've experimented with several packages). Anyway, my 2 cents, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pburgoyne Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 Heres my 2 pence on the subject, I think the anouncment of Viz5 (tho it should be Viz6 if based on Max6, weve missed a generation of dev that ended ip in Max6) is because of the backlash from Viz4 users about the integration of all market segments into Max6, namely design and Viz. I think they realised that not many people are happy or willing to upgrade to Max6, or that they will lose subscription costs. So little has been added to Max6 that truly benifits ArchViz users that it would be a waste of money for most Viz users. I think the Viz product is perfect for its market, and with Viz4 it was a major step in the right direction. I mean the extra dev put into Viz4 over Max4 made it much more productive and targeted to ArchViz USers. For the first time in the products history it was truly a specialised ArchViz product and not MaxLT. To answer the calls for a modular Max, well esentially that is what Viz was, you could upgrade to Max if you needed the axtra features and use Vizcopy to add the arch tools. Not perfect, but not much different. The reason i think modular will not work is the lack of focus the Max dev team can place on ArchViz issues, look at Max6 and the joint Arch/Max development, there is little or no step forward for Viz users, the only major change is the Arch Material, which in effect is a GUI change, no change to the underlying technolgy, nothing we couldnt do before with falloff materials. MR is another issue, and IMHO a dead end for ArchViz users outside of large studios. The two things that can happen with Viz5, mearly a cut down Max6, just cheaper and in a new box to appease the mass`s who are upset at the Max6 upgrade path, and subscription users. I hope not, but lets face it better than just the Max6 option for most of us. I have told my company to not bother upgrading our Viz4 to Max6 licenses, waste of money for us. Second scenario, they spend the time to add a few features we have been crying out for in Arch Viz, adaptive meshing, blurry refs etc etc. Giving us Viz5 with features that make it stand out above Max6 and others as a design tool. And bringing it back into line as a lightscape replacment, which they failed to do in the first generation, but the direction and dev was great start. The only downside would be the missed generation of devolopment that should have happend between max5 and max6, for Viz5. I think it is good news that the Viz community is possibly being offered specialised dev, i think it is a large market for Discreet, bigger than many think. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando Lino Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 My opinion is Autodesk Should create just one plataform...for example MAX LT with the same price of VIZ and if somebody needs more tools buying separed extensions....All this situation looks like Rocky XX and all these long movies with differents Chapters :ngelaugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Eloy Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 You know what? I still don't get it. With the release of the new ADT (with Viz render), why would Autodesk take this (IMHO) step backwards? I mean, this sounds to me like saying that putting a renderer like Viz (even though it's a simpler version of Autodesk Viz 4) into ADT was just a huge mistake. If you think, now you'll have 3 different products doing the same thing (for architects). IMHO, very strange... :???: [] Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted October 4, 2003 Author Share Posted October 4, 2003 If you think, now you'll have 3 different products doing the same thing (for architects). IMHO, very strange... :???: Yes this is exactly what I mean. Obviously price point is the underlying factor and the reason for 3 seperate products at three seperate price points, but I would hope that down the road they do opt for a module type system which would offer both the price advantage and the ability for developers to focus their attentions accordingly. I image something like this would work quite well, but would obviously require time to re-code MAX. MAX Core - $1399 AEC Add on - $499 Full Feature Add on-$1599 (Could break this up more maybe) This would add things that seperate MAX and VIZ now. [ October 04, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Mottle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgarcia Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 indeed - very strange - AD should jsut merge into one product as someone mentioned: MAX and MAX LT. Sort of like Maya Complete / Unlimited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 MAX Core - $1399 AEC Add on - $499 Full Feature Add on -$1599 And have all the goodies as add ons. Simple, really - it would seem. They'd have the market covered and would surely gain market share. It seems everyone is confused !! [ October 04, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Mottle ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard McCarthy Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 What's this "Bentley's Generative program" ?... could you elaborate on that? Originally posted by mbr: Then we've got Bentley's Generative program that looks really promising. It's true parametric modeling, from the article in Arch Record. Not Revit-like, but real stuff. Morphosis is currently testing it (I know Mayne's has always complained about why software cant' cut sections and they've experimented with several packages). Anyway, my 2 cents, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 "GenerativeComponents lets designers create rules for a project - for example, a complex stadium roof of known dimensions and curvature - and form specialized components to be used to construct it. These components then "populate" a design that's generated automatically according to the rule. If the rule changes - if the designer modifies the roof's span or curvature - so too do the shape, orientation, and behavior of all it's component parts, much like changing a formula on a spread sheet affects all the values on which that formula is based" from the current supplement that came with Arch Record. Sounds pretty cool, eh? Aimed at firms like Morphosis or others that are experimenting with large formal moves, but could be quite powerful. This is always the limitations of doing formal architecture. Gehry Technologies, or GT, has just begun, too, and could shape the future of architecture by bring his team's expertise to more firms (God forbid firms like HOK start using Catia!). Interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard McCarthy Posted October 5, 2003 Share Posted October 5, 2003 MBR : What you say sounds a lot like what Revit does. Although I still havn't tap into that powerful part of revit... family creation (ermmm NOT THAT KIND of "FAMILY CREATION" if you know what I mean.. ) It's suppose to let you specify all the parametric stuff. CATIA? I saw a demonstration once in a lecture and that "thing" doesn't look like it's made for architecture. Sure, the realtime sectioning tool looks coool, but hell, it cost $79,000 or so, while a mere $300 bucks Sketchup can do that easily too (with Shadow turn on too!) I still don't see why ppl choose CATIA other than been it's the most EXPENSIVE software in existance. Right now, I am just wishing Revit gets better hehe Maybe autodesk will give us a parametric link-graph schematic view window for next release to be play with.... or a better, a polygon/edge/vertices tool won't hurt too..... [ October 20, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Richard McCarthy ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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