should I get formz?

[phase2as]

Have been working with Lightwave for a number of years and want to upgrade the realism of my architectural renderings. Worked with Lightscape years ago. Great results when your model was flawless, but it was extremely unforgiving when it wasn't. Lots of black 'charring'. (Thought I saw somewhere that FormZ has the same rendering technologies.)

 

Is the latest version, 6.5 easier to work with and are rendering times with adding radiosity reasonable?

 

Thanks,

Phase2as

[AJLynn]

I think that's like asking "should I get married" - if you need to ask a bunch of people on a web site, the answer is no.

 

BTW from everything I've seen, using Lightwave you can get results at least as realistic as you can using FormZ - this depends a heck of a lot on the user, but why would switching from Lightwave to FormZ be an upgrade, especially if you already know Lightwave?

[phase2as]

I guess I heard and seen positive things about FormZ. Do you know if the latest version of Lightwave have the same rendering capabilities as FormZ? I noticed it cost about half of what FormZ costs and was uncertain if it delivered the same results.

[jackb602]

If you want to switch packages to produce high quality renderings more easily, FormZ is really the wrong way to go. I have been using it since 1993, and I still rely on it for most of my architecural modeling, so it's not that I'm biased against it. But in short, its rendering capabilities lag far behind most popular render engines.

 

I personally switched to Cinema 4D for everything but modeling several years ago, and I'm very happy with it. Its Advanced Render had some flaws, but it's actually quite easy to get started with and very flexible. Very tightly integrated plugins are available for finalRender and Vray as well.

 

I'm sure others will chime in with the advantages of other packages, but I doubt any of them will be FormZ users.

 

Jack

 

p.s. By the way, I have never used it but people speak very highly of the Fprime engine for Lightwave. That's probably worth checking out as well.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

i am a long time formz user. i love the product, but to the truth, the version i use is about 5 years old. i have the latest version, but i do not consider it as good of a product as their 3.9.5 version. i am not happy with the path they took as a company, and feel that they dropped the ball with a very good product, and feel they pushed the development of it in the wrong direction. i am in the process of phasing it out of my workflow completely.

 

i would also caution you on the results you will get using simply formz. i haven't used it as my rendering engine for several years. last i knew it used the lightworks rendering engine, which at the time was becoming outdated, and surpassed by the new age of GI engines. i think lightworks has started implementing the newer concepts on global illumination, but i can't imagine it has caught or surpassed those who pushed the industry.

 

i also used lightwave for awhile, and thought it had a lot of strengths, and was always giddy about the speed of ligthwaves interface. however, i do beleive formz is a better modeler when it comes to architecture.

 

if you are looking to switch, i would recommend 2 products.. cinema4d or 3dsmax. i think cinema is easier to pick up and use, gives good results, and is affordable. 3dsmax has a lot of support industry wide, and support across other industries, but is expensive.

 

....but as AJ said, if it isn't broke, why fix it?

[phase2as]

Thanks for the feedback! I guess I'm way behind the curve and have been working with an old version of Lightwave for probably too long. I tried contacting them, but couldn't get through and my email has not yet been answered. My only complaint was the rendering realism seemed to pale in comparison to most of the recent work being done. Saw samples of FormZ's 'Renderzone' that included the ambient occlusion and the radiosity. My version of Lightwave has radiosity, but it takes forever to render anything, so that feature is basically useless. My hope is to be able to achieve that improvement and if Lightwave has comparable if not better results then it is a no brainer. Just curious as to why it cost about half of what FormZ does, not that that's the predominant factor. Welcome input from any Lightwave users who do a lot of architectural.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

radiosity is also an outdated rendering concept. there are 2 schools of new engines, one designed around speed, and the other designed around accuracy. the speed set is vray, mental ray, final render, etc... the accuracy set is maxwell, fry, and probably a few others.

 

i don't know how to accurately describe the differences without doing research before hand, but i wouldn't base my software purchase entirely on whether or not the app has radiosity.

[Frosty]

Like Travis and Jack, I am a long time FormZ user (1997). I also still use it for modeling and I haven't upgraded from v4. It's far more crash prone than v3.95 but works better with my dual monitor setup. I also adopted Cinema 4D in 1998 and haven't looked back.

 

As most users on this board tell anyone asking questions like this, download the demos for all the apps you are questioning. Give them a spin and decide for yourself. Ask questions about features as you demo them so you can truly judge fairly. I think you'll be happiest with your decision if you do this.

[BrianKitts]

I'll play devils advocate and although I don't support formZ for it's rendering capability, I will say I think it's finally fixed most of it's problems. When they dumped their source code @ v4 and started from scratch to "optimize" the program they just shot themselves right in the foot, and it's been crash prone and problematic ever since...... till now. I actually think 6.0.4 is usable

 

working in the same office as Crazy Homeless Guy.....we had stuck with 3.9.5 for the longest time.... But I've actually been using 6.0.4 for the last 4 months or so. The only big advantages are the toolbars don't have to stay docked in the program window (I'm assuming that's why Steve likes it for dual monitor), you have full zoom and pan control with the scroll ball like max and autocad. And the refresh rate when orbiting wireframes seems to be improved.

 

The funny thing is I still load my preferences file from 3.9 so that it wipes out all of the aqua color foo foo icons, using the old preferences takes it back to the original grey and white icons that are labeled and make sense.

 

So no I don't support formZ as a standalone program if you are looking for just one, you'd be better off with max or c4d as CHG mentioned..... but formZ does still make for a great modeling tool.... specifically for architectural modeling.

[Frosty]

The only big advantages are the toolbars don't have to stay docked in the program window (I'm assuming that's why Steve likes it for dual monitor)

 

Bang on the money! Its one of the craziest oversight I've seen in software. Tool pallets should never be tied to the working window! The funny thing is I think it works properly on V3 on a Mac. They only screwed up the PC version.

 

One big pro to FormZ to me is its portability with the hardware key. I can install it on my Mac and my PC and simply move the USB key where I need it.

[Richard Rush]

(This is a copy of comments I also posted in another thread, but they seemed appropriate in both places)

 

As I read posts that discuss formZ on this forum (not just this thread), it appears that most people's familiarity with it is several versions behind the current product.

 

I have been using formZ as an all-in-one modeling/rendering solution for over eleven years. Like many other users I became very frustrated in recent years with the rendering part of the program. But version 6.5 with RenderZone Plus (released a few months ago) is a major leap forward in rendering capability. It achieves GI effects with a combination of Final Gather, Radiosity, and Ambient Occlusion.

 

While the implementation of radiosity in previous versions of formZ was completely unusable in my opinion, the main role of radiosity now in 6.5 is support for the Final Gather. And it works. I'm not suggesting that all this is equal to products such as Vray, but for anyone who values an all-in-one solution, I think formZ is worth a look.

 

If anyone is wondering why I stayed with formZ during a long period of frustration, I discussed that in some detail in another thread: http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/24838-...viz-max-2.html

 

Richard

[bjornkn]

My version of Lightwave has radiosity, but it takes forever to render anything, so that feature is basically useless. My hope is to be able to achieve that improvement and if Lightwave has comparable if not better results then it is a no brainer. Just curious as to why it cost about half of what FormZ does, not that that's the predominant factor. Welcome input from any Lightwave users who do a lot of architectural.

It sounds like your LW is quite old? The new version can render GI/radiosity very fast, and AFAIK the native renderer is one of the reasons why people choose LW in the first place? I have never heard anyone choosing FormZ because of its renderer?

I make a lot of architectural work in LW, but I do most of my modelling in SketchUp, which IMHO cannot be beaten for fast and precise modelling of ArchVis from 2D DWG files (which is what I usually get in).

When using LW you should really buy FPrime, which is really extremely useful when setting up your scenes with materials, lights etc, as it provides realtime GI rendering with instant zooming into detailed areas. It saves a lot of time.

I also bought Cinema4D some years ago, but didn't really like it very much, and then skipped it entirely, mainly because of their unfriendly licensing/upgrade policy.

[Sketchrender]

I used formz for 6 or 7 years full time everyday, and loved it.

Then I had a look around at what the industry top guys were doing , and decided if i want to be up with them , and compete for jobs i needed to switch to max , and i am very glad i did.

i have not used formz since the day i switched.

 

my advise , and i know it is expensive, but it will pay for it's self in about 3 or 4 jobs.

 

move to max, and level your playing field.

 

phil

[bjornkn]

I forgot to mention LWCad, which a lot of people praise highly for modelling architectural scenes in LW.

 

BTW, it would be a sad day when everybody are using Max/Vray.

I really hope that there will be different playing field options in the future too, although it looks like AutoCad is trying to control everything by buying the competition.

[rfuller]

I've been using formZ for only about 3 years now. For the first 3 or 4 months I had it I used it as an all in one so that I could really focus on learning the program.

 

Now I just use formZ for modeling. I do all my rendering in Max9 with mental ray. For me, formZ works quicker than max for modeling, and it transfers over very easily. I only do architectural work, so I'm not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for. Either way, I would suggest formZ as a modeling tool.

 

Oh, I have 6.5, and while there are many great advances, its just not worth the time or effort to get the renderings to look right, when I can do the same thing in Max with half the headaches in half the time.

 

My two cents.

[manta]

I would also say have a look at FPrime, I've seen some great stuff done with it, hopefully your version of lightwave is compatible...there is also Modo, which looks very promising...

[skala67]

i have used form since 1993. i currently use form v. 3.8 for arch and site modelling and C4d (latest) for textures, entourage, lighting, and rendering. it is a nice combo, now ecspecially since vray finally came out for c4d. i have also used 3dMax as a complete package and have reached the same results. it is definitely the user that makes all software packages work, that is why there are so many choices. Form-Z has a steep learnign curve due to its difference from most modelling programs. good luck

 

cheers,

[mshamlian]

Speaking of marriages I have to second the vote for marrying the formZ modeler with Cinema 4d...Cinema is a great renderer for the money but you have to be very organized in parent child naming of objects and groups when working with large models. Currently, I am modeling in formZ and Max and rendering in Max. I like the Max interface (hate the price) but still miss the Cinema renderer. (It breezes through multiple raytraced reflections on objects where big cumbersome Max gets bogged down when more than a couple of objects get reflections...I don't think you can beat old formZ (3.95) with Cinema as renderer/animator...

[phase2as]

Thanks, I stuck with Lightwave 3D. Was already familiar with earlier version and the recent upgrades yield good results.

[Pavlov]

Imho, nothing is as powerful as LW9.5 + LWcad combo, as far as we talk of arch viz modeling.

Regarding rendering there are really many choices, but staying into LW you have a lot today. Fprime alone is worth a purchase of LW, and it has really no equals on the market (not until the announced Vray interactive, probably). Once you get used to Fprime, anything else will look quite primitive and slow.

Again, Kray has same Vray's quality and it's as fast if not faster, even if it's still not as-featured (fur and network). LW 9.5 alone has a high GI quality, a powerful new caching system, custom and IES lights, full nodal shading. From LW you can access unbiased engines like FRY and maxwell as well.

Lightwave's plugin HDinstance is probably the most powerful instancing system on the market.

In other words, there's no real reason to switch from LW unless you work in an environment where all use something else, or unless you want really to learn something new.

If we talk of quality and operative speed, LW+LWcad+Fprime+Kray is a killer and very complete combo for archviz, and you'll pay it a fraction of the quite overpriced 3ds max, as example. If you have just to upgrade, it's a no-brainer.

 

Paolo

Edited September 15, 2008 by Pavlov