Legal question? My client wants the model and files.

[innerdream]

Or another way to look at it is to remove everything that you cannot legally sell. Tell them to never ask for this again but you are ok with it this once and pick a piece of software you want to buy and price it at that. Get zbrush or a tutorial. Take a class or even get a PS3. Price it at something that makes it worthwhile and "fire" them. Also make sure you have the money before you hand over the models because I imagine they wont need you either after this.

 

Yah, that'll probably be all I'll get is a bit of pocket change. They made it clear that they have an in house artist that they want to make changes when their client hates the pitiful design they came up with.

[Justin Hunt]

If thats the case then tell them to go jump, they can do it in-house

 

 

JHV

[innerdream]

If thats the case then tell them to go jump, they can do it in-house

 

 

JHV

 

And I qoute "go jump." It's amazing how clients, some not all, think that you owe them just for having the privilege of being abused by them.

[znotlin]

You know I think most clients are dealing with us, precisely at the same time they are pushing for some extreme deadline, and their calousness towards our situation isn't usually personal but circumstance. So, while I think revenge is all very well and nice, it ain't all that helpful.

 

So, if it were me:

 

1. I would NOT sell my materials or lighting setup, as those are worth more than any amount that you can't retire on.

 

2. You probably could sell the furniture IF you deleted it off your system, never used it again, and charged the client what you paid for that stuff.

 

3. Now for more of the obvious...the geomtery of that model is worth absolutely nothing to you if you don't want to work with them again. And as luck would have it the ONLY person in the world that ascribes any value to that model happens to have your phone number. You know how long it'll take to build, you know what range they pay their 3D guy, figure how much it'll take them to rebuild, subtract some arbitrary number that is just barely worth their notice (say $150), and then let them see your calculus and final price. If they bite, great it's found money if not, nothing lost.

 

Either way you can leave a flaming bag of dog crap outside their door, ring the bell and run.

[AJLynn]

So they want it for a purpose that makes them money that ought to be yours. If their client said they rights to reuse a CD set to build a second building they'd say 'sure, now pay us a second time' - it's the same thing, their client doesn't own the drawings unless the contract says so, they don't own the models unless the contract says so. But this is America where we have the right to try to cheat you (I've done it myself) but you don't have to go along with it.

[Spooner04]

I think if you deleted lights, cams, materials and third party models, collapsed the mesh and maybe even changed the scale just for grins. This would maybe be like your dentist giving you floss and a tooth brush at the end of the visit.

[innerdream]

You know I think most clients are dealing with us, precisely at the same time they are pushing for some extreme deadline, and their calousness towards our situation isn't usually personal but circumstance. So, while I think revenge is all very well and nice, it ain't all that helpful.

 

So, if it were me:

 

1. I would NOT sell my materials or lighting setup, as those are worth more than any amount that you can't retire on.

 

2. You probably could sell the furniture IF you deleted it off your system, never used it again, and charged the client what you paid for that stuff.

 

3. Now for more of the obvious...the geomtery of that model is worth absolutely nothing to you if you don't want to work with them again. And as luck would have it the ONLY person in the world that ascribes any value to that model happens to have your phone number. You know how long it'll take to build, you know what range they pay their 3D guy, figure how much it'll take them to rebuild, subtract some arbitrary number that is just barely worth their notice (say $150), and then let them see your calculus and final price. If they bite, great it's found money if not, nothing lost.

 

Either way you can leave a flaming bag of dog crap outside their door, ring the bell and run.

 

This is good thread everyone and I laughed a lot.

 

On the dog poop tip. I was evicted from my apartment of 10 years because the landlord bootlegged the unit and the city closed it down! I am suing and when the marshall went to serve notice he ducked and ran - they didn't serve him. So...he gets burning poop for sure.

[AJLynn]

Do the dog poop thing, and pin the notice on the door in a normal loking envelope. Hide in a bush and photograph him angrily grabbing the notice off the door while swearing.

 

Actually don't take advice from me, just find a process server to do it for you.

[Spooner04]

If their client said they rights to reuse a CD set to build a second building they'd say 'sure, now pay us a second time' - it's the same thing, their client doesn't own the drawings unless the contract says so, they don't own the models unless the contract says so.

 

Out of all of these this is the most sensible argument

 

A simple way of dicouraging him, would be to download some really obscure 3d software, export your mesh, import it into the new 'weird' software, export it again in the most uncommon format you can find with as many free plugins and scripts you can get your hands on applied to it, slice the hell out if it, collapse the mesh, re-export as something else, subdivide to 1 cm, save, put it on a zip disk formatted for an old operating system and charge him 500 dollars. He'll think he's getting a bargain but it will take him 5 years to decipher the file. Tell him you always work like that, its your favourite method and he "will never understand the complex world of 3d rendering"

 

This sounds like the most fun to me. I would charge him a couple of grand though.

 

I would suggest you definitely not give them any lighting, materials, cameras or 3rd party models. I would make it clear that you are only giving them the mesh. If it were me I would even collapse the mesh and tell them that you don't want to deal with them anymore and to even talk to you over the phone the need to give you a retainer as a consultant.

[colinsmith]

Yeah, quote them a price that makes it clear it is for the mesh you modeled only and no further support, and make sure the price is enough to make you feel good about the deal, whatever else happens after that.

 

Then they take it or they don't and you don't care.

I don't think selling the mesh is any big deal, as long as the price is right.

Even if that means future business with a company puts you as a "modeler only".... as long as the price is right......

[innerdream]

Yeah, quote them a price that makes it clear it is for the mesh you modeled only and no further support, and make sure the price is enough to make you feel good about the deal, whatever else happens after that.

 

Then they take it or they don't and you don't care.

I don't think selling the mesh is any big deal, as long as the price is right.

Even if that means future business with a company puts you as a "modeler only".... as long as the price is right......

 

These people are a joke. I got an email this morning saying " we need the files please send them as..." This is after I told them there would be a fee!

[Spooner04]

Make sure the check clears first, go cash it at their bank.

[AJLynn]

These people are a joke. I got an email this morning saying " we need the files please send them as..." This is after I told them there would be a fee!

 

From somebody who understands what's going on, or from a junior staffer who's on point because he knows how to use Photoshop? Most junior staffers have no idea how to work with consultants (and architecture firms often have crappy internal communication) so if it's that, you need to go straight to the project manager, who's the person most likely to know anything at all about business.

[BrianKitts]

These people are a joke. I got an email this morning saying " we need the files please send them as..." This is after I told them there would be a fee!

 

There is nothing wrong with you requesting funds before transferring the files. I would rewrite a letter back at them stating that since their possession of your working model is the termination of any future contract work on their project you will require full payment for all completed services in addition to your fee for the model itself BEFORE you can release any files. Be sure to specify exactly how the model will be delivered (sans textures, lights, cams, copyrighted models, etc...) and by all means state that it is sold "AS IS" and you retain no responsibility for the quality or content of the model.

 

Worst conceivable nightmare of selling your model would be if they use it create construction documents and when it causes problems at construction time they come back to you and try to blame you for problems that arise from dimensions in your model. Crazy I know, but I've actually heard this one before.....I've worked with a couple of shady developers now and as crazy as this sounds, for some people you just can't take that chance

 

The last model that I sold to a client I did just as I previously mentioned, and when they received the model they told me it was garbage and totally unusable and demanded their money back for the model. After explaining that I had pre-warned them about the state of the delivery and that I had provided a model exactly how I had proposed they had no legal action against me, and they disappeared not to be heard from ever again (SWEET!) Those are the clients that you enjoy dropping.

[leed]

Just thought I'd ask the outcome of this....

 

As I am in a similar position at the moment, and have been looking for a definitive solution to apply to future terms and conditions.....

 

But at the moment..... after the client accepted our quote, they said that they wanted us to hand over the model as part of the commission. I have said that would be an extra charge and there are issues with copyright of some of the geometry and textures used but they seem set at pushing this.

 

Is there anywhere I can look for UK copyright legislation?

 

 

Thanks

 

Lee

[gfa2]

I'd send them the licensing information that you have received from the makers of your purchased models and textures and let them know that these items will not be included in the model (if you agree to give them anything at all). At least that way they will know that it won't be a complete model, and maybe it will change their mind. I must say that if this isn't in your original contract...I'd be thinking twice about doing it. I know you want to keep clients happy so you can get repeat business...but you don't want to be taken advantage of. Also, by giving them the model you might not get repeat business from them anyway, sounds like they want to do future work to the model. Maybe just collapse all the objects to editable mesh and assign a generic color for all textures.

 

I had one client that requested my model and after I told them that I can't give them most of the textures, I can't give them a lot of the objects in the model and I can't give them the plugin's I use so they probably won't even be able to open the model....they dropped the issue.

[leed]

I agree... I am not going to just give the model over and if I do sell it to them I will make sure they have in writing what they are getting... and I get payment upfront...

 

but there is a whole grey area to the copyright issue just want to find some clarification on it..

 

 

Thanks

 

Lee

[gfa2]

I don't see much gray in the copyright. You purchase models and textures and are allowed to use them but not resell them. Do you see it differently?

[leed]

it is not so much the bought mesh, geometry and textures but the geometry created to produce the animation or images... The architect thinks that the geometry belongs to him because we produced an animation for him...

 

Regards

 

Lee

[BrianKitts]

were you contracted to deliver an animation or a model?

 

A painter isn't asked to deliver his brushes or paints when he delivers the painting, it's just his tool to complete the trade.

 

(BTW excuse the over-used metaphor, I know it's been said a few times here on the site when this question gets asked)

[AJLynn]

That's only true if it's in the contract that way. The architect should know better - it's the same as with the architectural drawings. The architect owns the drawings unless the contract says otherwise. His client pays him for the assistance in getting a building built, not for the actual drawings, and has no right to do something directly analogous to this situation like using them to build a second building. In exactly the same way, the architect pays you for the animtion and has no right to use your model files to produce more graphics (or for any purpose).

[leed]

Thanks all

 

Our contract is made up of a quote in which I outline the services I am to provide, based on the job briefing, and the terms and conditions outlined on my invoice.... I have been paid if full for the job. but now they want the files too. which I do not mention handing over or price in my quote..

 

I will see where it goes, we are too-ing and frow-ing to the moment. I am happy to give them what geometry I can, if we can agree a price.

 

Lee

[STRAT]

sounds ominous mate

[BrianKitts]

You've received payment already? In that case to me that's a sign that you've completed everything they were entitled to. Payment means completion normally, you don't get paid before you are done working. (retainers aside)

 

Not to push another stretched analogy but.....You can't buy a car, pay for it take it off the lot, then go back and try to negotiate more options without expecting to pay more. It's already a done deal.

[landrvr1]

In the last months of my freelancing, I started putting verbiage in my contract that made it quite clear that the mesh was my property; and could be purchased separately at my discretion. Saved my butt 2 times.

 

Generally speaking, these were one-off projects and I usually had no problem just turning over the mesh. I was never worried about my Super Duper Incredible VRay Modelling Secrets getting into the wrong hands. My creativity is what I value, not the 587 VRay techniques that I'd already ripped off from tutorials, CGarchitect, etc etc.

 

The second you start thinking that it's your amazing modeling / lighting / materials skills that should be valued most is the second it all starts to go downhill.

 

EDIT: Just to add to this a bit. There's actually been cases when I've turned over my VRay scenes to others; in the hopes that they could copy my technique for a project we were both working on together. It's amazing, but every single time I've done that, their images still looked nothing like mine.