Legal question? My client wants the model and files.

[Matt Sugden]

I think there is some interesting advice on this thread... my own would be never hand over your models without a lot of cash.

 

unless you have a very sketchy contract, most of us stipulate you are producing images or animations, and not delivering models, even if it states you have to produce a model to create the images, most contracts should have a clear definition of what the final deliverable is.

 

The best advice I can offer is to strip your model of anything which you would deem to be re-useable, windows/doors, textures, lighting, settings and give them the raw geometry for a big old fee. And absolutely never give it over for free.

 

in the case of whoever started this thread, I wouldn't try and piss off your client as such, but I would try and eek every last penny out of them if you never have any interest in working with them again.

 

by the way, in terms of the legal aspect of clients threatening law suits, it happens surprisingly infrequently, as it's very expensive and time consuming to do, and usually not worth it. so don't be easily scared. it would be far easier and cheaper for them to get the model re-made than sue your ass.

[andy shand]

you know all this discussion would make some sense if you knew that some guy your competing against isnt going to agree to hand over models to get the contract....because i have seen it being included in the brief time and time again....

 

what makes me laugh is the attitiude that we are all part of the team during a competition ...and soon as they win they just give your model to some cheap shots.

 

i have had my own model given back to me by some architect not knowing that i had done it in the first place and one of the agreements was not to pass it to a 3rd party!!.....architects are a pretty unscrupulous bunch on the whole.

 

grab the whole model ...and colapse!!! you may have to keep it to a size that your memory will tollerate....and one huge multisub.....clients love neat models like that.

 

its dog eat dog out there guys.

[leed]

You've received payment already? In that case to me that's a sign that you've completed everything they were entitled to. Payment means completion normally, you don't get paid before you are done working. (retainers aside)

 

Yes my thoughts exactly.. although you would want payment before handing the geometry over...

 

In the last months of my freelancing, I started putting verbiage in my contract that made it quite clear that the mesh was my property; and could be purchased separately at my discretion. Saved my butt 2 times.

 

Generally speaking, these were one-off projects and I usually had no problem just turning over the mesh. I was never worried about my Super Duper Incredible VRay Modelling Secrets getting into the wrong hands. My creativity is what I value, not the 587 VRay techniques that I'd already ripped off from tutorials, CGarchitect, etc etc.

 

The second you start thinking that it's your amazing modeling / lighting / materials skills that should be valued most is the second it all starts to go downhill.

 

EDIT: Just to add to this a bit. There's actually been cases when I've turned over my VRay scenes to others; in the hopes that they could copy my technique for a project we were both working on together. It's amazing, but every single time I've done that, their images still looked nothing like mine.

 

 

Interesting comments.. and yes you are right..... but if it is not specified in the costing then the handing over of the mesh would be an extra to the original brief. I could hand it over out of good will i suppose..

 

unless you have a very sketchy contract, most of us stipulate you are producing images or animations, and not delivering models, even if it states you have to produce a model to create the images, most contracts should have a clear definition of what the final deliverable is.

 

The best advice I can offer is to strip your model of anything which you would deem to be re-useable, windows/doors, textures, lighting, settings and give them the raw geometry for a big old fee. And absolutely never give it over for free.

 

 

I think i will need to beef my contract up a bit, but all the work is outlined and deliverables are listed...It is just jobs come in with tight deadlines and if we went through the process of signing contracts we would cut the time on jobs by half... so I try to make sure that the contract is made up of the quote and the invoice...

 

Thanks all for you comments I am being asked to hand over the geometry more often normaly after expaining the situation people understand....

 

The thing is even if I hand the geometry over I think the architect thinks he will be able to hit a button and get images out of it...but he does not have C4d 10. Vray.. so he will not be able to open the file... he has not specified anything...

 

 

Anyway.. I will let you know how things go..

 

Lee

[Trevor Tizard]

I've worked for a number of architects in the past and all have tham had a disclaimer on the drawings that also stated that:

 

"Copyright of this drawing remains the property of ***** Architects..........."

 

So as mentioned before, they keep their design/drawings - you keep your model. Don't give it up without alot of money..........perhaps ask another architect you work with how much they would charge if a client wanted their drawings and see what they say.

 

Good luck.

[landrvr1]

Interesting comments.. and yes you are right..... but if it is not specified in the costing then the handing over of the mesh would be an extra to the original brief. I could hand it over out of good will i suppose..

 

 

Yeah, I guess the good will thing is where I was usually at; being cool and cooperative is something that they will remember. If you did good work, completed everything on time, and were flexible - those are things they will remember.

 

The fee that was proposed and accepted included creating the mesh, applying lighting/materials/etc etc etc. The deliverable is the image and/or animation. The work is done and the mesh is now just sitting around. And sitting. And sitting. And sitting. 9 times out of 10 it isn't going anywhere. It's going to collect the proverbial dust on your drive until.....? Why not turn it over?

 

Another way to look at it is this: If you are a really skilled model maker, that mesh could also be very good advertising. Someone could see it in the future and say "Wow, who created this? Let's call them up NOW for this new project..."

 

Just looking at other angles...

[SandmanNinja]

On a side note - does anyone stick a "Render by " in any of their work, much the way traditional artists do? On the edge of a building, in the bark of a tree? Or do your contracts state "please state on your page 'renders by '"? Does anyone specifically ask permission to use the work for their advertising purposes? I have that (verbally) with my photo clients. I tell them it's free advertising for THEM when I put them on my website.

[Justin Hunt]

I used to ask that I get credited for the image when its published. 9 times otut of 10 it never happens. When I have added my logo to an image, it get carfully cropped out, this is especially so for newspapers. Now I dont bother

 

jhv

[bluedogok]

One arch. firm that I worked at had a generic contract written up that covered different deliverables. The standard one was just drawings/images and had the standard legalese in place. Another one was a separate contract regarding "Transfer of Digital-based Intellectual Property" and I think it was about 3 pages worth of rights/use/exclusions. If they aren't willing to sign off on that, then they may have other intentions for the IP.

 

Whatever you do, get paid for it. I trust most architects more than I do developers, what I have learned over 20 years of being in architecture is that developers try to do as much as they can with other peoples money, and most have less scruples than an alley cat.

[Thox]

I need some advice and assistance regarding this matter as well now. I work in an Architects office were dwg files, are regulary shared with other members of the design team, such as Structural Engineers and the like.

 

However, If I mention to my boss about copyright and IP, regarding the 3D models for projects, he would probably say I'm just being difficult. So I need some clarification and good arguments for not giving out our 3d models willy nilly.

 

A project I have just finished is a good example. I completed the project, produced the renders and sent them to whoever needed them. However, on this project I have been asked to send the model to two external consultants, the landscape architect and the PR Marketing company. The marketing company I am more concerned with, as usually they produce there own basic 3d model, on this occassion though they have asked that we send them our 3d model.

 

Should we be sending our models to external consultants like this, especially with no fee attached?

 

Regards

 

Thox

[Trevor Tizard]

I would say no...........I'd never send my model, andcertainly not textured or lit. They can buy additional images from you for their use - as if you were an outside imaging firm. I doubt the likes of glowfrog would distribute their models to their client.

 

Edit:

Also you have been asked to produce images not a model. Perhaps contact a company that would produce a model for you and see how much that would costand charge accordingly.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Trevor Tizard

[gfa2]

I need some advice and assistance regarding this matter as well now. I work in an Architects office were dwg files, are regulary shared with other members of the design team, such as Structural Engineers and the like.

 

However, If I mention to my boss about copyright and IP, regarding the 3D models for projects, he would probably say I'm just being difficult. So I need some clarification and good arguments for not giving out our 3d models willy nilly.

 

A project I have just finished is a good example. I completed the project, produced the renders and sent them to whoever needed them. However, on this project I have been asked to send the model to two external consultants, the landscape architect and the PR Marketing company. The marketing company I am more concerned with, as usually they produce there own basic 3d model, on this occassion though they have asked that we send them our 3d model.

 

Should we be sending our models to external consultants like this, especially with no fee attached?

 

Regards

 

Thox

 

You know, at the end of the day...if your boss wants to send the model to these people without being paid for it and he has been educated on the situation, what can you really do? But like all the other posts in this thread say, you shouldn't send any copyrighted 3rd party materials or models that you're company has purchased and placed in your model. If that strips the model of a lot of it's content maybe that will turn the tables a little. So maybe just apply a gray material to everything and export them a .3ds format and call it a day.

[Simon Moir]

Last year we received a model of Dubai Financial Centre, where everything had been attached into one 2.9 million poly mesh... My guess is begrudgingly.

 

3D models represent many thousands of hours work over the course of a large project so it's no suprise there is reluctance to share. We always issue our entire scenes to anyone doing marketing renders etc, but we don't expect them to reciprocate, what would be the use? Our workflow works well for us, picking apart someone else's lighting settings etc isn't why I'm in this industry anyway! If it's another architectural firm we will freely issue the model, but normally without textures, definitely no cars etc.