Should I, Shouldn't I?

[Thox]

I am at a bit of a crossroads.

 

I currently work as the only visualiser within an architectural practice in Cardiff. My boss has asked me on a number of occassions at the possiblility of bringing in external 3d work into the company, other than producing the visuals for my company.

 

Which is fine, but I told him I believe that in order to do that we should either rebrand the 3d side of the company or setup a separate independent company to produce the visuals. The reason being that, I believe if we get an external client they may wonder who has priorty with the work, the external client or the company I work for.

 

Therefore, I came up with a proposal for rebranding the 3d side of things and setting up a separate company. Personally, I felt the setting up of a separate company would be the way to go, as there would be no connections to the main company, but with the financial backing of my current company. However, having had a meeting with my boss today, he says fine setup an independant company, but I have to fund it, market it, etc which I can understand. Or rebrand the 3d side of the company and build up the department, within the company. I can understand were my boss is coming from.

 

My dilema is do I set up by myself, with the risk of not getting any other work or clients, other than the company I work for.

 

Or rebrand the 3d side of the company, with the comfort of a wage every month, but no real say in the company.

 

I would be grateful for thoughts and opinions.

 

Regards

 

Thox

[leed]

It is a difficult question..... looking at your work I feel you may benefit from staying with the firm your with for a while and trying to develop the work a bit. It is always tempting to set up, and I am not saying don't do it, but you will have to make a living from it and as you said, there is a big risk to that, especially if you have a house a wife and kids ( not sure if you do ).

If you do set up on your own it will be worth you looking at the companies you will be in competition against.... one of them is buzzbox (who I work for) icreate, persona id, preconstruct to name a few in the area.

 

Who are you working for at the mo?

 

Regards

 

Lee

[JamesTaylor]

However, having had a meeting with my boss today, he says fine setup an independant company, but I have to fund it, market it, etc which I can understand. Or rebrand the 3d side of the company and build up the department, within the company. I can understand were my boss is coming from.

 

i'm afraid i don't entirely see where your boss is coming from, unless i am missing something in your proposal?

 

are you still suggesting that you will work for your current employer, just under a new company setup up by your current employer? Are you to have financial gains from becoming a director or such like in the new company or will you simply still be earning the same monthly wage but under the name of a new company??

 

the cost of setting up a company (legal papers) is minimal, perhaps less than £150 after that if you want to bring in external work you will have to advertise which will cost you money irrelevant of wether or not you are advertising the architects in house team or a specific 3D company. The majority of other business requirements such as account spreadsheets etc. already exist for the architects so duplicating the business systems shouldn't be a significant cost or time issue.

 

Personally i think your correct in setting up a new company as it'll look better to potential clients. After that i don't see the major difference either way except that by setting a separate company up your boss may be thinking that he'll have to let you in on the profits should the company succeed.

[STRAT]

i was once in this exact same situation in my previous archi firm. i wanted to expand the company's 3d side of things from within the practice, doing 3d work for other companies, whilst all staying in-house so to speak.

 

it was deemed not viable. which is most logical when you think about it. if you do visualisation for a firm, then thats where your loyalties lie, both in time and effort. what if you get a 3d job in that directly competes with one of your firm's existing projects? or you get competing architects or clients looking for work? or you get a job in, and all of a sudden your time is needed back on 'firm's' official work? how do you split your time? you cant. besides, no other client or developer will employ your services for external work whilst under the banner of your main firm. these are all facts we explored and came to the conclusion to.

 

so you get the basic choice, do i stay where i am but maybe 'expand' the 3d side of the existing firm? it's a safe bet, but how much will the boss pay out to expand, and expand into what? what will change? why isn't it already happened? it's just buying new kit in essence. and how long will the company keep the impetus going? the 3d side of an archi firm is quite a luxury really.

 

or do i go it alone. re-branding or doing external work whilst working in a firm of architects really isn't an option for the firm. so you go alone. most scary.

It's a risk, as you must make a constant income of full time work to pay the rent. actually making a decent living off it is hard. real hard. earning 5 grand here or there every now and then isn't good enough.

 

And without wishing to put a spanner in the works, the quality of your imagery at the moment isn't up to the standards of your competition.

 

think about it real hard. As Lee said, at your stage i'd stay put in a garanteed wage paying position for the time being.

 

good luck with your choice

[Derek Entesano]

I also have had similar thoughts over the last couple of years as I head up a Presentation Unit within a 100+ architecture firm.

The option I found best benefited me and the firm I work for was to only do our own designs. Mainly because it is a value add and a point of difference to other firms and it eliminates the numerous conflicts of interest that you will encounter.

We have been set up as a separate business unit, resposible for profit/loss, client satifaction, development etc. We can be separately sub-branded and marketed. We are still protected by the parent company from write-downs etc but are able to track our profitabilty and take a share of that.

The firm will finance your training and growth if you can earn them lotsa money!

There is good money to be made if you have large clients who often like the one stop shop approach if the quality is there.

I also have a wife and kids and this is a great option to minimise your risk

[EddieLeon]

We have been set up as a separate business unit, resposible for profit/loss, client satifaction, development etc. We can be separately sub-branded and marketed. We are still protected by the parent company from write-downs etc but are able to track our profitabilty and take a share of that.

The firm will finance your training and growth if you can earn them lotsa money!

 

It seems Chops found the ideal situation. I also worked for a large firm, but they had no interest in supporting our desire to build a 3d unit.

 

I believe the only way you can succeed is if you have FULL support from your company. It will take a lot of resources to get the unit off the ground and running. At times, it might appear to the principals as a distraction, since it is a different business unit that is not really part of an architecture firm's core-competence.

 

I have seen many firms create a 3d department only to dismantle them a few years later. I'm not sure which ones have remained successful over the years. The ones that come to mind are Company39 and Skyscraper Digital. Maybe you should research them a little bit also.

 

IMO if your boss is giving you the green light and financial support then go for it. If he is requiring you to make a greater investment than he is, then I suggest you make a good plan and try building your 3d company a different way.

 

By the way, I am a firm believer in "when there is a will, there is a way". Don't let the current quality of your work hold you back. There isn't a specific standard that you need to reach before you can start a business. In your case, the trick might be to team up with friends that can compliment your skills. A successful 3d business is not just about good art. It's very important, but there's more to it.

 

Good Luck!

[Thox]

Thank you for all your comments, they have been very useful.

 

I am thinking the way forward is to probably market and expand the 3d side of the business, but rebranded under a different name from the parent company. My one concern about this is, is that my boss has already told me, that if things get tough, particular with the financial markets as they are, I will be first out the door (really builds your confidence up that), even though I am an Associate with the company and one of the first to be employed. However, I will battle on.

 

I still have a few questions for boss, which I will put to him today, such as does he require that I put money into this, invocing clients, etc.

 

With regards to business practice, I believe, if the 3d side is a branded unit, then all invoicing, filing, job referencing, email, etc, should all be done separately from the parent company. Currently, all 3d work is included within the architectural jobs within the practice, so for example job 1234, has a folder called 3d, which includes all 3d information for that job. Plus, my boss always keeps telling me that 3d work is included within the overall fee for a project, so I never have any idea what is being charged or who much the 3d side has earned. Anyone have any opinions on this.

 

With regards to the quality of my work, yes I agree it may not be to top draw standard, but are current clients have been exceptional pleased with the work I have produced. I am always striving to improve the quality standard of my imagery and would be grateful for any pointers in improving on these.

 

On another matter, do any of the Cardiff boys every meet up anywhere?

 

Thanks again for all your comments, keep them coming.

 

Oh yes, I do have a house, wife and a 4 month old son.

 

Regards

 

Thox

[STRAT]

sounds a best bet

 

who do you work for out of interest?

[Thox]

Inspire Design

[Matt Clementson]

On another matter, do any of the Cardiff boys every meet up anywhere?

We ought to - there are enough of us about.

[STRAT]

that'll mean we'll all find out we're really ugly in real life :eek:

[Thox]

that'll mean we'll all find out we're really ugly in real life :eek:

 

I've already seen your photo

 

We ought to - there are enough of us about.

 

Sounds like a good idea to me, but there again any excuse for a drink...

 

Regards

 

Thox

[EddieLeon]

My one concern about this is, is that my boss has already told me, that if things get tough, particular with the financial markets as they are, I will be first out the door (really builds your confidence up that), even though I am an Associate with the company and one of the first to be employed. However, I will battle on.

 

I still have a few questions for boss, which I will put to him today, such as does he require that I put money into this, invocing clients, etc.

 

Thox, if your boss is telling you he will fire you if business drys up then it means he might have already made the decision and is hinting to you to start making plans. I would seriously reconsider doing him the favor of bringing him new business. Especially, if he is not willing to make an investment and include you as a partner in the new venture. If I were in your shoes, I would start looking for a new job or at the very least find my own 3d freelance work.

 

This is just my opinion. Good luck with the Cardiff boys. I bet they will be willing to help you and give you better advice.

Good Luck!

[Sawyer]

WAIT! You are being told that you need to put money into a venture and yet you don't have any job security? Please tell me I didn't read that right. That sounds like the worst situation I have heard of. You will be the first fired but you have to come up with your own money to get your boss to let you work for him? This doesn't sound good. If you put a cent into this have a plan to get reimbursed if you are let go.

No just don't do it. Or correct my understanding of this situation.

[blowback]

I have to agree Sawyer & Eddie,

 

This sounds sketchy.....first to go? Man...I'm already out the door. Unless I don't understand your bosses proposal.....I would start putting some lines in the water;)

[Derek Entesano]

With regards to business practice, I believe, if the 3d side is a branded unit, then all invoicing, filing, job referencing, email, etc, should all be done separately from the parent company. Currently, all 3d work is included within the architectural jobs within the practice, so for example job 1234, has a folder called 3d, which includes all 3d information for that job. Plus, my boss always keeps telling me that 3d work is included within the overall fee for a project, so I never have any idea what is being charged or who much the 3d side has earned. Anyone have any opinions on this.

 

I cant see why the fee cant be listed separately in the initial fee agreement. Then you can weigh it against the hours you spend on the project and work out your profit/super profit. Or have a separate marketing fee proposal. It only is difficult when the imagery is part of 'the package' for council approval or the like. But usually these images are alot simpler than the marketing stuff which is where the money is.

[mikedeerf]

Seems odd to me, too. Your boss must have SOME idea what he's charging for the 3D, unless his contracts are drastically different than ours. We've recently started offering presentation materials as a "suggested service" in our proposals. But every contract has multiple phases in it, with a $$ attached to each.

So a $50,000 contract might "include" 3D work, but $20k is earmarked for "land development" plans, $10k for "stormwater", $4k for "3D renderings", etc. etc.

 

Or look at it this way: there was probably a time when your company didn't do any 3D work at all. Then one day they did. Surely they don't give those hours away as a gift... how much did the contracts increase when they started including 3D work?

 

Honestly, I think all the cards aren't being put on the table. There could be lots of reasons. Maybe you're quite efficient, and the profits from your 3D work are offsetting losses somewhere else. Or maybe, less flattering, you're slow like me, and they're losing money on the 3D, offsetting that with something they're better at, and mentally chalking the 3D up as a marketing cost for now (hoping to get better real soon).

For whatever reason, good or bad, I feel like your boss is holding some information back.

[mikedeerf]

...but now I'm going to contradict myself.

After I said those nasty things about your boss, I got to thinking "how much did we REALLY get paid for a rendering I did?"

 

I'll use make-believe numbers.

Say the client wrote us a check for $4,000 for "3D renderings." I spent $7,000 worth of time (again, I suck). So we lost $3,000 on that job. easy.

Except that we were paid $100,000 to get this project approved. We've been fighting with the town for 4 years over it. After 3 years of arguing about line drawings, we did one 3D rendering, showed it to the residents, and the town said "approved." How much was that worth? $5,000? $10,000?

We'd get $100,000 whether it takes 3 years or 4 years. So the faster it gets approved, the bigger the profit. The longer it goes, the more we start burning cash.

 

So as much as my boss busts my chops about how much we lose on these "rendering things," there's a reason they put up with my 3D fetish. 2 renderings submitted, 2 tough projects suddenly approved. The $$ has nothing to do with what we charge the client directly, and everything to do with how many 2D plan set revisions it saves us.

 

I guess it's possible your boss really doesn't know what it's worth, if he's profitting INDIRECTLY more than DIRECTLY.

 

On a related note, that's something to think about with going out on your own. No indirect profits. Working in-house, I can afford to go 60% over budget as long as the exhibit saves us money on revisions and meetings.

 

If I were to start my own 3D business, I'd lose my shirt. If my rendering helps someone else make a bigger profit... THEY make a bigger profit. I still get paid what the contract said. I'm nowhere near that good.