Considering giving up the Archi field

[Billabong]

I have been considering giving up the archi and product field. It's just almost impossible to find a job. I have been modeling now for almost 4 and half years and as of yet have not found anything steady. So either my work sucks or there just isn't any work out there to be had. My only other option is to either start learning the gaming field or go get a job at Home Depot. Don't get me wrong I have had offers, but they have either been very low pay(I mean very low) or they were way out on the west coast with no relocation assistance. Now if it was just me, that wouldn't be a problem, but I'm married and have 2 girls to think about as well.

 

Plus freelancing is doing nothing but pissing me off. I get emails all the time,"Hey Brandon, got a job comin up, we need you on" and thats pretty much the last I hear about it.

 

I'm sorry guys, I'm not looking for self pity, I just felt like I really needed to vent, because honestly I feel like I'm about to go postal if I don't.

 

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else had any problems finding work?

 

Thanks for listening

 

-B

[Ernest Burden III]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone else had any problems finding work?

 

Absolutely everybody has, at one time or another. There's a reason its called a 'feast or famine' business. You try to make the ups good enough to cover the downs, but in the end its a difficult way to earn a living. If the most important thing is the income, find something safer. There is opportunity, but it can be trying at times to work in rendering.

 

I have been modeling now for almost 4 and half years and as of yet have not found anything steady. So either my work sucks or there just isn't any work out there to be had.

 

Neither is true. Your work is good, to be sure. And there is work out there, its just not always easy to get noticed for your skills. Think about what you are good at and find ways to make yourself known to those who would benefit from your help on projects. Of course, as you are working hard to develop skills you should be looking to establish yourself as a direct provider to clients. However, modeling skills are not enough to do that, you need a more rounded set of offerings. From the posts you keep making on your learning projects I can see that you are working hard on that.

 

In the end, you should think about where you want to go and figure out how to get there. There are people who can advise you, but only when you know where you're headed. That has to include location. What is the balance between options and opportunities to do the work you want to do vs. being where you are happy, comfortable and able to live like a normal person? There are people who will go anywhere, make just about any sacrifice to do certain work (like film FX or fashion for example). Architects have historically been expected to work for laughably low salaries just to do Architecture. Then as clients they expect renderers to join in the fun. 'It's not enough to live on, but at least I'm doing Design'. For me, no thanks. For others, that is a valid compromise. Ask yourself what you want to get out of your worklife and what you are willing to put into getting there, and give up to be there.

[Billabong]

Thanks Ernest, I am thinking about attending AAU online. The guys at CGTalk cannot say enough good things about this school, plus it is online. Which basically means I can get my bachelors at home, which I think will open a few more doors for me. That is if I can qualify for the Financial Aid

[Sketchrender]

My advise would be to get in to a large architectural company, preferable with other people doing your job.

You will learn, and will also have the fexability for family time also if you need to do things with your family.

I don't know if you have tried getting a job in a company, but I think it ia more secure option with a family.

 

you can always do work in the evening if freelance work comes along.

 

phil

[Billabong]

Actually Phillip, that is exactly what I tried to do for the past 2 days. I put all my renders together in a nice reel and hit every archi firm and real estate developer I could find. No one wanted anything to do with me.

[Charles Gaushell]

Great advice from Ernest

 

I actually think the opposite of Phillip and suggest that you hit up all of the arch viz companies as opposed to arch firms. There really aren't that many firms (except for large ones) that have dedicated 3d staff. And if you factor in that the average arch firm is about is 10 people, then that takes out the vast majority. And on top of that, very few projects actually need arch viz beyond study models and nearly every architectural student is taught CAD, Sketchup, etc.

 

If you have more samples than you have on your website, then you should post them. Not nearly enough in my opinion.

 

Don't underestimate networking for clients and jobs. Getting your name around via relationships will have the biggest payoff.

 

Best.

[Billabong]

Thanks Charles for replying.

There arn't any Arch vis companies in my area. Acutally there arnt any in South Carolina. I agree that I do need more arch vis on my site, but at the same time, what I do have does show that I can do the work.

[TheAllusionisst]

As far as architectural firms in the US, they tend to love SketchUp work, infact I am the only one (just brought someone great on board, but not saying anything yet on that, who can do SU as well) in our studio that does it, so everyone else is getting rendering stuff and I am doing the SU stuff. Pre-Vis seems to be booming, in actuallity we are getting big SU models from architectural firms for the base of rendering services, unfortunately most designers know nothing about proper organization of CAD or SU so that is a nightmare.

 

What I am suggesting that maybe you focus on loose stylistic work to show architects and sell it hard for pre-viz and as a design tool (make sure if it is to be used as a design tool your fee structure compensates you for all the revisions), they seem to eat that stuff up! I think you are using C4D, so you have a sketch style render option available to you, I believe, so you don't have to use SU which I have a love hate relationship with. Just a suggestion, know your audience, to me it seems developers and layman want that typical PR over exposed GI image while architects appreciate stylistic renderings.

 

Just an idea, cater your pitch to the audience. As far as you commenting on hearing a lot of possible work and then it vanishes, it would be interesting to hear what the average persons closing ratio is, I think I am around 10% and probably should be at 25%, what I am saying is that everyone does lots of proposals and lands a small percentage of them, so don't let that dissuade you.

 

The other suggestion about working for an arch firm and another about moonlighting, I would suggest thinking about marketing your self as a double threat employee, like CAD and Graphics, most firms have someone who does that, it is a lot of CAD and some coloring of 2D graphics and some 3D once in a while, but it could allow you to obtain a steady pay check and get to do some of the stuff you like to do until you establish yourself to a point where you can do what you want full time. FWIW

[Billabong]

Thank you Russell,

 

There has been some really helpful and kind comments made here and I really do appreciate it. I realize I have still got a lot to learn. It just gets so damn frustrating sometimes. It really does. You know I don't think I would be this stressed out if I was still in my twenties, but now I'm 3 years away from 40 and I am really starting to get a little stressed about everything.

 

There are some things that I do believe I should have stated to begin with. The state I live in is very,very old fashioned(redneck), that really doesn't care to catch up with the rest of the world. I know that sounds a little dramatic. But it really is the truth. The architect firms here won't even talk to you unless you have a degree. They don't care if you can do the work or not.

 

Example:

I went to the biggest archi firm here in my area yesterday. Now the reason I went is becuase I took a look at thier website and thier render were very basic and not appealing at all. So thinking I am all that, decided well, I will just wow these guys and just watch as the eyes pop out of thier head. Yes I really thought that. Well nothing like a good swift kick in the ass to bring you back down. The guys did not care. They said we already have someone that does renderings, I replied but yes can they get thier renders to look realistic. Thier reply was, well we have them as realistic as we want'em. Do you have a degree. NO. Well then don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

Now I know my a lot of my renders are far from realistic, but good lord man, they are 10xs better than any of this companies work. The point of the fact is they just don't care.

 

I have a friend that lives in Columbia,SC which is the the captiol of SC and a pretty big town, he says he can't even get these guys to email him back.

 

Which is why I guess I need to further my education more. I just hope I can qualify for the financial aid. Traveling a few states over just to go to school is out of the question, but like i said. I have heard nothing but good things come from AAU. plus I can get my bachelors on line.

Just in case you don't know what school I'm talking about, its The Academy of Art University in San Fransisco . http://www.academyart.edu/

So if you guys have the time, say a little prayer and keep those fingers crossed that I can get it, I know I am.

 

Thanks so much guys for listening and trying to help. it means a lot.

 

-Brandon

[TheAllusionisst]

We wish you luck and much success

[EddieLeon]

...it would be interesting to hear what the average persons closing ratio is, I think I am around 10% and probably should be at 25%...

 

That's a great question! Our revenues have been steady, but our closing ratios have been dropping. In the last couple of years I would say that we have dropped from 50% down to about 25%. The obvious result is that we have had to spend a lot more time and money to get the same amount of work.

 

Our market is changing, but I believe there is still a lot of work out there. If we are savvy about how we approach things and retool our operations we will all continue to be successful. If we keep doing things the same way and don't analyze the effects of increased competition and a slowing economy, then some of us will need to move on to greener pastures. I love Arch Viz so I will stick it out

 

Regarding Billabong's situation, I think operating as a sole practitioner in our industry is going to become increasingly difficult. There is too much for one person to do to remain competitive and maintain a client's need for scalability. I highly recommend you find a business partner that compliments your skill sets and/or find someone to outsource some of your production to so you can focus on marketing and networking as suggested above. Good luck!

[innerdream]

I feel your pain as I'm older!

 

You are in a service industry and they suck. I wouldn't limit myself to Archviz if I were you. Advertising, Film, TV, Web they all use 3D. Marketing is a job you need to try and do every day. Best of luck.

[landrvr1]

I feel your pain as I'm older!

 

You are in a service industry and they suck. I wouldn't limit myself to Archviz if I were you. Advertising, Film, TV, Web they all use 3D. Marketing is a job you need to try and do every day. Best of luck.

 

That's spot on advice right there.

 

 

Architecture = Starvation

Architecture is a crap business, and architects make the worst businesspeople. 30 years ago it was a crackin way to make a living. The pay was great. That notion has never left us. How many Hollywood movies feature architects that seem to be rolling in cash? LOL. It's a common perception that hasn't matched reality since around 1970. Consider this: Architecture and interiors is about the only fee based consulting business in which fees have consistently gone DOWN over a 20 year period. Look at any other consulting practice - from accounting to graphic design to business - and you will find that fees go up. They may not go up as fast (depending on the cycle or timeframe), but they do consistently go up. Architecture and interiors? Exactly the opposite. The average fee for a nice corporate office interior 10 years ago in Chicago was around $3.50 per square foot. It's around $1.25 or less these days. Those numbers hold true with any firm around the world.

 

Firms barely have money to pay their staff and make any profit. Paying an outsider to do renderings? Pffft. I spent 16+ years as an interior architect with some of the largest firms in the world, and I can say - without shame - that architecture and design is a shit business. It's a model of working that is BARELY sustainable at this point, and there will be radical changes to the entire methodology of the profession over the next decade.

 

The great part is that the architecture schools - with their lofty ideas of changing the world through design - continue to pump the students full of sunshine and get them all thinking that they're going to be the next Frank Gehry. Meanwhile the business itself is collapsing. It's damn near criminal.

 

Go Where The Money Is At

Companies that actually MAKE something is where the cash is at; bar none. There's about a billion and one companies that make widgets, so the sky's the limit.

 

I'll give you an example: Commercial lighting manufacturers.

http://www.lightolier.com/home/home-swf.jsp

 

Let's say Lightolier is going after a big client. The client and architect like one of the fixtures, but want to do some customization. YOU'RE on staff as a Visualization Specialist to help them realize their design. You do a cool product shot. Maybe that leads to you building an entire office interior scene with those same light fixtures AND the IES data already offered by Lightolier. It's a beautiful thing. Why not model some of their fixtures and send them some shots? Ask to speak with the head of marketing. Get an email address. Finding a niche for yourself isn't just another avenue, it's THE avenue in this day and age.

 

As far as getting a degree, that should be priority #1. 99.9% of companies out there require something. It doesn't really matter what, but something artistic wouldn't hurt.

[innerdream]

Scott and I have the pretty much the same experiences. I am going to get out for good some day and it will be to sell something or a web based business model. I am just sick with where I am in life because I have stayed in Architecture all these years.

[manta]

Hey Scott...what's the reason for this downward slide in fees...

[TheAllusionisst]

I would agree with most of what has been said. I think it isn't the companies that make something that make the big bucks, it is the closer you are to the MONEY/SOURCE, the more you make, has nothing to do with production vs. service IMHO That is why we have got our foot in the door and are doing real estate marketing, the goal would be to become a marketing company to some extent. This gets us closer to the money and allows us to deversify in the services we offer.

 

Example of being closer to the money came up last week, I was in the conference room of a developers office on the 72nd floor of the tallest building in Seattle and we were joking about this as we looked out and enjoyed the view. The developer then said, that is exactly right, much better to be sitting here than where ever the poor landscaper is sitting right now working on one of our projects.

 

The other item I have a differing opinion is about ID, architects do make crap and we as a sort of off-shoot of that industry should take note and instead operate somewhere half way between architects and lawyers, we could still keep our souls, but make a decent living getting compensated for what we do. Interior Design firms make good money for what they do, I will leave it at that.

 

All in all a great thread, diversify, market to your target demographics, and get a degree, what is so funny to me is you can have a fine arts degree and then get a masters in architecture and get licensed as easy as the person who has a six year full architectural masters degree, food for thought.

[blowback]

Eddie,

 

You bring up a really good point about "going it alone." With the amount of knowledge that one person has to know, it is becoming impossible for one man shows. Do studios have to become not only visually appealing, competitively priced... but broaden there services to incorporate new technologies, like BIM?

 

Closer to the source......I like that.

 

I think it has been said here already, but I agree with the point that you have to pick a direction, a strong suit and follow it. Ask yourself; Art production, marketing, or business, and in what vein? Arch vis, Games, SFX? Sticking with the Arch Vis 3D, do you look at Studio, Freelance, or Arch Firm? Different skill sets are required for these different environments.

 

Billabong,

 

Family responsibilities and age add pressure. I empathize. But I think if you ask some of these questions to yourself honestly you will come to some successful conclusions. Good luck

[rockstarkate]

One more avenue worth exploring: Engineering/Consulting firms. I work for the Visual Communications practice at a large firm. Job security and good pay. Sometimes there can be long hours, but in general 9-5. Some of the work is Vis type work. Other times it's product type.

Just keep your eyes open. Digital graphics are used everywhere these days.

[landrvr1]

Example of being closer to the money came up last week, I was in the conference room of a developers office on the 72nd floor of the tallest building in Seattle and we were joking about this as we looked out and enjoyed the view. The developer then said, that is exactly right, much better to be sitting here than where ever the poor landscaper is sitting right now working on one of our projects.

 

That's a good point. Working directly for a developer and/or real estate broker is about 100x better than working for the architect. If you can become the developer's go-to visualization resource - one that the architect will have to use, but not pay - all the better. That's not uncommon in major markets like NY, LA, and Chicago.

 

The other item I have a differing opinion is about ID, architects do make crap and we as a sort of off-shoot of that industry should take note and instead operate somewhere half way between architects and lawyers, we could still keep our souls, but make a decent living getting compensated for what we do. Interior Design firms make good money for what they do, I will leave it at that.

 

If we're talking about residential interior design firms, than I would agree. They are usually very small, don't do any real production work, and consistently make a pretty good profit. If were talking about commercial interiors firms that do office design work, they are little better off than architecture firms. Gensler is a great example. Probably the most successful architecture firm in the world in which interiors comprises 90% of their work. They're struggling like everyone else, and face real challenges in the future.

[Charles Gaushell]

Regarding Billabong's situation, I think operating as a sole practitioner in our industry is going to become increasingly difficult. There is too much for one person to do to remain competitive and maintain a client's need for scalability. I highly recommend you find a business partner that compliments your skill sets and/or find someone to outsource some of your production to so you can focus on marketing and networking as suggested above. Good luck!

 

I'm with you Eddie. I sure would hate to get into this alone these days. In addition to the scalability it is jut plane harder to market your services as you will be spread thin and limit your networking through contacts. Having multiple people to spread the network is huge - and it takes time. So time and more people with you (or you with them) is key.

 

As far as outsourcing to grow a company - I'm a bit of a purist about that. I can see outsourcing modeling, but not illustrations/animations - that feels a bit like pimping work to me. I know others here disagree. But for control purposes, we refuse to outsource and thus lose quality control.

 

Regarding architecture firms - I would avoid the "I/we are better than you" approach. It isn't about "realistic" or not - it is about usage. If what they do serves the purpose as a design tool or presentation tool - they flat out don't need you. So you need to see if you can get access to their end client by expounding upon what they can provide.

 

Best.

[Billabong]

Regarding architecture firms - I would avoid the "I/we are better than you" approach. It isn't about "realistic" or not - it is about usage. If what they do serves the purpose as a design tool or presentation tool - they flat out don't need you. So you need to see if you can get access to their end client by expounding upon what they can provide.

 

Best.

 

Yeah That was a major mistake on my part Charles, but like i said it did bring some humility.I seriously doubt I will quit archi and product modeling all together. I just enjoy it way to much. But I do need get my career moving along as I am not getting any younger and neither are my kids.

 

Man I really opened up a can of worms on this subject. Thanks guys for being so helpful

[landrvr1]

Hey Scott...what's the reason for this downward slide in fees...

 

There's the outside influences:

a. dramatic increase in overhead costs starting in the 1970s.

b. rising value and insane jumps in the cost of real estate.

c. clients having less and less of their own money to spend due to shareholder's demands to keep profits high and costs down.

 

That's a heady mix of business environment factors that created one very bad thing in the architecture and design community: Undercutting.

 

Undercutting during the bid process is the main culprit, and pretty much how the whole slide got started. Putting in a slightly lower bid in order to win a job has been a part of any business since the beginning of time, but....I swear....architects and designers have taken it to a whole new level that borders on insanity.

 

The undercutting started reaching epidemic proportions in the mid-90s. XYZ firm offers to do a new building for $5 per square foot. ABC firm comes in at $3. Nearly half. That kind of slashing is unheard of outside the world of architecture. Undercutting because you are using cheap overseas labor is one thing, but that certainly isn't the case here.

 

Architects and designers only have themselves to blame. They've completely sold out; treating each other as enemies. Instead of rallying together in a competitive spirit to ensure that they get paid what they deserve (advertising firms are a classic example of a group who has done this VERY well), they decided to stick it to one another.

 

A lot of small to mid-size architecture and design firms have gone under. It's a simple financial curve chart, really. There is a dollar amount per square foot rate that allows a firm to make a bit of profit. There is a dollar amount per square foot rate that allows a firm to break even. There is a dollar amount per square foot rate in which the firm is screwed. More and more are dipping into the latter.

 

That's not to say that there's a LOT of money to be made on a new building project. Oh my. Far from it. There's a ton of mofo's raking in the cash on these deals. Everyone but the architect, that is.

 

Sorry for the really longwinded posts today.......

[SandmanNinja]

Does anyone think these "$500 render" solo companies are filling some sort of niche/vertical market, thus diluting the market?

 

I have a few architect and home builder photography clients and had done some "one-off" room models for them and they were met with positive reactions. I'm trying to hone my skills with lighting so I can make a nice looking portfolio.

 

I have to admit that I have been 100% focused on entering the Arch field and I hope I'm not too late.

[Charles Gaushell]

 

Architects and designers only have themselves to blame. They've completely sold out; treating each other as enemies. Instead of rallying together in a competitive spirit to ensure that they get paid what they deserve (advertising firms are a classic example of a group who has done this VERY well), they decided to stick it to one another.

 

 

To jump in with you - a few other things:

 

1. they gave up the desire to be "master builders" by the time modern architecture hit - focused on design and let the contractor take control of the construction process

2. ...exasperated further by law suits (blame the lawyers)

3. rulings against the AIA and how architects used to set fees were shot down in anti-trust suits....architects used to have a standard fee range they all agreed to and forced clients to select based on relationships and quality - not fee. once that went away it became cut throat as client's saw they could negotiate for lower fees.

 

Number three leads me to a pet peeve - 3D companies that undercut the industry. Not much that can be done about it, but ends up being a disservice to the industry in the long run.

 

Thus there is a niche for the cheap renderings, but once you are in that groove it will be hard to get out and if a client is to blind to see the difference between some of the crap we have all seen done in that range then it makes it tough for all of us.

 

Scott - you've rubbed off on me - sorry for the lengthy post.

[EddieLeon]

As far as outsourcing to grow a company - I'm a bit of a purist about that. I can see outsourcing modeling, but not illustrations/animations - that feels a bit like pimping work to me. I know others here disagree. But for control purposes, we refuse to outsource and thus lose quality control.

 

Charles,

I agree with you also. I thought twice about writing the "outsourcing" hot button. But, the truth is that there are different levels of outsourcing and for many successful studios (and freelancers) today it has become a necessity. Outsourcing can also refer to using artists within your own country. In this case, I just meant that Billabong should find some help so he can increase his capacity. Outsourcing the modeling as you suggested is a good first step.