EddieLeon Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Do studios have to become not only visually appealing, competitively priced... but broaden there services to incorporate new technologies, like BIM? Clients lately are very "value" conscious. They like to shop around, so if you can show quality and competitive pricing then you increase your chances for winning the job. I guess this is what is called being "competitive." It is a slippery slope, so just be careful a prospective client doesn't try to play you against another studio. You need to set limits. Regarding new services and technologies, you need to stay within the realm of your core competencies. I ventured into the game industry and it was a bit of a flop. I tried product visualization and it was a little better. Regarding BIM, I'm keeping my eye on it. It will eventually change things, but maybe not for a few more years... Sticking with the Arch Vis 3D, do you look at Studio, Freelance, or Arch Firm? Let me flip the order to Arch Firm, Freelance, and Studio. This was my career experience. I believe they all have their pros and cons. The real difference on which to choose depends on the appetite for entrepreneurship. Here are some of my opinions on the choices: Arch Firm: Your life is in someone else's hands. If you work in a large firm and they support a Viz Lab, then you are ok (for now). Freelancer: This is a great lifestyle for a few years, but you eventually have kids. Just kidding Actually, I think it's hard to make this business model work long term. Burnout is a big factor, plus it's impossible to sell the business. The key to success for freelancers today is in providing excellent customer service and maintaining "repeat business". It's almost impossible for overseas studios to compete with you on this level. Studio: This is the only model in which you can get a sense of career. It is a place that you can either start from scratch and grow as big as you want. Or, where an artist can get an entry-level position and work their way up the ranks to partnership. The rewards are much greater and IMHO it's the best choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Go Where The Money Is At Companies that actually MAKE something is where the cash is at; bar none. There's about a billion and one companies that make widgets, so the sky's the limit. I'll give you an example: Commercial lighting manufacturers. http://www.lightolier.com/home/home-swf.jsp I agree. Lighting manufacturers are a good way to diversify. Actually, I have an excellent client in Chicago that is a lighting manufacturer. They don't question our fees and pay promptly to boot. My only question would be "how big is the lighting market?" If everyone starts going after it full-bore what will happen? Personally, I think Arch Viz is a great core market to focus on. I would continue to dedicate at least 90% of my marketing energy to it and spread the rest to the general Product Viz market. This would include contract furniture, boating, aircraft, consumer goods, etc... By the way, the best way to target these markets is indirectly through established Advertising Agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landrvr1 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 3. rulings against the AIA and how architects used to set fees were shot down in anti-trust suits....architects used to have a standard fee range they all agreed to and forced clients to select based on relationships and quality - not fee. once that went away it became cut throat as client's saw they could negotiate for lower fees. That's a good point, and certainly didn't help the situation. The AIA meant well, but ultimately played their hand very badly. We could probably debate and discuss this one for a long time, but I saw a helluva lot of firms (usually new upstarts or folks that recently left bigger firms) in the early 90s voluntarily reducing their fees with no prodding whatsoever on the part of clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ...the goal would be to become a marketing company to some extent. This gets us closer to the money and allows us to deversify in the services we offer. Yes. Marketing/Advertising is an easy way for us to diversify our services. But, it's a temptation that I resist for 2 big reasons: 1 - I studied Architecture and not Advertising. 2 - Some of our top "repeat" clients are Ad Agencies. DBox and 7th Art were very successful in making the transition. But, these companies are no longer 3d companies. In fact, 7th Art had to create a separate brand "Studio Swim" to handle the 3d. I prefer to stick it out and grow our industry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Gaushell Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 If I can be so bold, I think Scott, Leon and I agree on looking at options but developing individually or collectively around your core competency. There are tons of tangential business opportunities to arch viz and many of us have dabbled......or sometimes grasped and moved forward with. Heck, we created 15 interactive museum exhibits over the years (and even a fair amount of medical and aviation work) - fun, but difficult markets to maintain as the networking opportunities are more difficult than the real estate world that we are more familiar with. Even within arch viz there are certain types of projects or clients that are more abundant. Billabong - There is no pat answer to which market or career path because we all have different skill sets, goals and what we are willing to trade for success and happiness. I could make more money in the short run with certain business practices, but opt for a great work environment for my employees and myself. I suggest you keep contacting arch viz companies or other freelancers to team up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden_Pixel Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hey Billabong, I am replying to your first initial post. Unfortunately you are trying to get into this field at a difficult time. When I started out a guy at your level could probably find an entry level position but that has gotten a lot harder. In my opinion entry level positions are harder to come by as studios outsource a lot of their lower end work. In the future and even now I think Arch Viz studios will have a core of high end guys in house and out source the rest. When I started in Arch Viz I had to accept a very low wage to get my foot in the door, got some experience and then moved on. You may have to do the same. Even if you have to work nights and weekends in a second job to make ends meet. It would be very hard work but you would probably be able to move onto a better paying job after about a year if you put your head down and get some good renders under your belt. Also in this industry unfortunately you do have to move to where the work is available. You may have to relocate to that low paying job. Believe me you have to make a lot of sacrifices to get your foot in the door nowadays. But remember there is light at the end of the tunnel. After you have about five years experience and hopefully a great portfolio you will have the control as to where you want work and how much you want paid. I agree that it is very difficult for a guy at your present level to go it alone. The only ones making that successful at the moment are very high end guys with a lot of experience. Sorry a long winded post. Basic advice is that if you really love Arch Viz you will have to make a lot of sacrifices for the first couple of years. Work hard on your portfolio, you have a couple of nice renders but it could do with a lot of improving and remember it is always better to show a couple of great images than show a portfolio with good and weak images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowback Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ........ it is always better to show a couple of great images than show a portfolio with good and weak images. always leave them wanting more;) Eddie, I am " currently " at an Arch Studio. It give me stability while I take on intermittent freelance work, keeping options open, and sleep to a minimum. Billabong, What helped me the most was answering the question, Do you want to make art, or administer it? Then with all the really good points brought up in this thread, you can define a path by answering the rest. Good luck Dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 One more avenue worth exploring: Engineering/Consulting firms. I work for the Visual Communications practice at a large firm. Job security and good pay. Sometimes there can be long hours, but in general 9-5. Some of the work is Vis type work. Other times it's product type. Just keep your eyes open. Digital graphics are used everywhere these days. Engineering consulting is the field of visualization that I currently inhabit. The pay and benefits are excellent and it is a very stable industry. The projects are very diverse and can be extremely challenging as well. Engineering firms are using alot of visualization these days. Several of these large firms also have architecture groups. Here is a list and links to a few: URS Visualization Website: http://www.urscreativeimaging.com/3d-animations.html Gannet Flemming 3D Website: http://www.gfnet.com/3dvisualization/index.htm Carter Burgess Design Visualization Website: http://www.c-b.com/projects/ListProjects.asp Company 39 (Parsons Brinkerhoff 3D Website): http://www.company39.com/home.asp Halff Associates Visualization Website: http://www.halff.com/vst.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourthand11 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Arch Firm: Your life is in someone else's hands. If you work in a large firm and they support a Viz Lab, then you are ok (for now). As I currently work for a large arch. firm I'd be very interested to hear exactly what you mean by 'for now'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 As I currently work for a large arch. firm I'd be very interested to hear exactly what you mean by 'for now'. As our industry matures, I believe the large architecture firms will find a better solution to manage their 3d production needs. I'm not exactly sure what it is yet, but I know the current options for them are not ideal. I don't think anyone's job is at stake, but I do think some roles might get clarified. For example, architectural designers will all work in 3d, but only to a certain point. An internal (or external) 3d consultant will then complete the process for them. This new type of consultant will have virtually no limitation on production capacity or quality because he/she will be supported by a highly organized and scalable off-shore operation. I guess you can call it something like "internalized outsourcing". It would be very similar to how reprographics companies manage on-site operations for large offices. This is just a theory, but if it works it can mean big business for whoever figures it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourthand11 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 As our industry matures, I believe the large architecture firms will find a better solution to manage their 3d production needs. I'm not exactly sure what it is yet, but I know the current options for them are not ideal. We've had similar discussions in the office. BIM is creating in-house modelling solutions, and when a magic 'Make beautiful render' button is added where will that leave those of us who stayed with the arch. firm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ...when a magic 'Make beautiful render' button is added where will that leave those of us who stayed with the arch. firm? Fortunately, the magic button doesn't exist yet. Although, future products like Autodesk "Newport" might make things interesting for us. Changes won't be so sudden that 3d artists in Arch firms will be left stranded. HR is tough for many firms, so good employees will always be able to keep or find a job. I'm pretty optimistic about our industry. We just need to keep our eyes peeled for changes and opportunities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden_Pixel Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hey Claudio, I found your post very interesting. I have a Civil Engineering background and a Building Services background but currently work in Arch Viz. Thanks for the links, do you know of any more companies?. How easy is it to get into this field?. Do you know if the pay is better or comparable to Arch Viz, even better do you know the pay range for entry level to senior level?. Lastly is my background overkill for that field, can you get into your profession without an engineering degree?. Sorry for all the questions but your post tweaked my interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Sorry for all the questions but your post tweaked my interest. No need to apologize. I put the links up there for people like you and Brandon (Billabong) who are just trying to create art and make a decent living at it. Do you know of any more companies? HNTB Corporation (viz offices in Dallas, TX and Kansas City, MO) Parsons Viz (viz office in Pasadena, CA) Freese & Nichols (viz office in Fort Worth, TX) How easy is it to get into this field? You need to be a good problem-solver and be creative as well. Your portfolios' purpose is to showcase your creativity and the job interview is where your problem-solving abilities will be explored. Be passionate about 3d! If you have done quality 3D work elsewhere, you can do it again in a different industry. Do you know if the pay is better or comparable to Arch Viz, even better do you know the pay range for entry level to senior level? This is a difficult question to answer because there are several variables (geographic market, experience level, quality of portfolio) to consider. I do know individuals in both industries making as much as $90K working for firms that pay OT. Is my background overkill for that field, can you get into your profession without an engineering degree? IMO, your background sounds well-suited for the highly technical world of civil viz. As for the degree question, that is probably going to differ from firm to firm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden_Pixel Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Thanks for the advice Claudio, it seems like a very interesting field. I am definitely going to look into it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 The best clients are the repeat ones, service them well and they will come back time and time again. At the same time never stop marketing to new clients, heck they could be your next repeat client. You mentioned that you keep on getting calls for future work that never arises, call them, don't wait for them to call you. I have no fear of BIM, in fact its made my life easier. Allot of the donkey work is now handled by someone else, leaving me to hit the "make Beautiful" button. I have been watching and been involved in this industry for a long time now. One thing that I love about it is that its constantly evolving and reinventing itself. As such you have to do the same. What I find interesting is how far behind some of American architect firms are in adopting 3D. When I started it was a question of how can we include 3D into the architectural practice to stay ahead, rather than we cant afford to include 3D. I have noticed, in several threads, how anti 3d some firms are. I would have though that it would be an essential part of the practice by now. Heck I'm taking 13/14 years of debate on the benefits of 3D in architecture. One of the reasons for leaving South Africa was because I feared being left behind in this game. Looks like its happening all over the world. You can use this situation to your advantage by establishing yourself as an industry leader now. So when these firms do finally wake up and smell the rendering, you will be the first they will approach. These things take time though, so there maybe a bit more of the tough times ahead. Use this time to polish your skills and establish your identity in the market. JHV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 I know it's 10 times easier to keep an existing client than to court and secure a new one (photography I'm talking here, but same should apply). My bread and butter is upscale real estate photography (75%), with Architects/Home Builders (20%), and then just pure random stuff (travel magazines, etc) (5%). Invariably, the pay seems to be inversely proportional to the frequency of use - the travel mags pay very well (those Brits/Pommies love Aussie outbacks!), then Arch/Builders, then real estate "people". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Bold Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 It seems the US is very fragmented on uptake of 3D, you're right. UK is a different story, but one aspect i'd like to hear more about is outsourcing. When overseas these past few years i've dropped into a small number of good rep name studios in Uk and Us, to hear mixed bag discussions and results from outsourcing all or part of the typical pipeline to discount warehouse upstarts in developing countries around Asia. It seems from their experience this outsourcing offshore to cut costs has lost favour in the UK, (nightmare issues with quality, compatibility, re-working - lost clients and even law suits over false advertising due to the offshore upstart not understanding local building codes and product materials.... I totally agree with the need for this 3D industry to band together to ensure good prices and salaries can be had by all, (unlike architecture in the US and more like ad agencies) and not undercut eachother. WE CANNOT BECOME A COMMODITY - and nor should we. In my experience, when we've pitched to big clients, we've often missed out even though we are cheaper. - the client often isn't concerned about price and thats great - Creativity and Reliability is often more important, but, to fly in the face of a previous post here - when we've asked for feedback on why we missed out - it was because we appeared to them to not have alot of images in our portfolio - (what we showed them in our pitch was a few relevant good ones, not everything we've done) whilst the winning studio apparently showed them the lot. Whilst unfortunate for us in these instances its a good sign that what we do is highly valued and is becoming an important part of the DD and marketing game. If this industry reduces to a commodity, where we all undercut eachother for a short term game, then we've got no one else to blame. (PS: Ha! Justin! I'm also an ex South African living in Aus. I've been watching these forums for years but as you could see from my membership, i've only just joined to add my two cents worth.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Thanks for the advice Claudio, it seems like a very interesting field. I am definitely going to look into it further. Here is one more firm to look into that uses 3D visualization: http://www.sradesign.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotten42 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Brandon...have you thought about hitting up some of the furniture amnufacturers. It isn't as interesting work as the architectual side of things but there is lots of work out there with these firms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAWUK Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Not sure what you'r markets like over there but have you tried exhibition design contractors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetr Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Hey Claudio, Thanks for the link:) I work for PB (Formerly Company29...we got rebranded) in the Denver office. Most of what we do is AEC related with little commercial arch-viz stuff. Of course, I enjoy the arch stuff since it's a bit more "artistic" Wokring for a well established viz firm is great...good pay, solid job...I'm able to take care of my wife and kids. Brandon, consider Engineering firms...there's good work in it. I also do some freelance jobs from home. Now, here's my only real piece of advice: Networking. Once you've done a good job for someone, they'll likely use you again AND refer you to other folks in the business...and they tell two friends, and so on:) Best of luck to you! I know you'll end up on top with your talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 One of the engineering firms I previously showed a link for was: Halff Associates Visualization Website: http://www.halff.com/vst.php Halff Associates' also specializes in forensic animations used in legal proceedings. Forensic animation is widely used and would also probably be very stable. Scientific visualization is another field where 3D viz people can find some good challenging work. Education, Automotive, Aerospace, Equipment Maintenance & Training, Education, etc... ...all just a Google search away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share Posted April 21, 2008 Hey guys, Thanks so much for all your support and feedback. I know its been a few weeks since I have replied or posted anything. I have been doing a lot of thinking I guess you could say. I was able to get half of the loans I needed to get back in school, but not the full, and unfortunately for me it's not enough. I considered maybe going into the gaming industry, but then came to my senses. The bottom line is, I love doing archi work. plain and simple. So in other words, I'm not going to give up and I am determined no matter what to make it in this industry. I just wanted to say thanks once again for everyones support. -B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 You rock, Billa! I think the gaming industry is swamped now and will continue to be swamped for the foreseeable future. I don't think many things can compare to a well-thought out skyline... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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