Orchid_Andy Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 (edited) Outsourcing sounded great to me, because I associated it with minimizing costs and increasing profits. However, this was not as easy as I thought. There was the price to pay for outsourcing. My partner and I have shared the same vision to utiliize the affordable labor force in China to reduce the costs for our clients in 3d production services. So we set up a company and hired 14 professional 3D artists. Little did we know, that was where our trouble started. We were proud to make an announcement to our clients about cuttng down the price for them due to our new approach. We expected very positive feedbacks from them. However, the complaints from our clients were like the water coming down from the Niagara Falls. The reason was that our 3D artists had very limited English. As a result, many mistakes were made in the projects. It was also my fault. I made a huge mistake on selecting our artists, because I concentrated too much on the 3D artists' ability to produce high quality products,but paid little attention to their ability to communicate with our clients. Some of our clients even threatened us to discontinue their projects. Luckily, we came up with an idea to battle this crisis on time. We hired bilingual project coordinators to make sure what our clients wanted were clear to the artists. This was just one of the problems that we had during the course of outsourcing. When I hear the word "outsourcing" now, the first thing comes to my mind is not lesss costs and more profits anymore, but that painful experience. Please share your story with us. Every story deserves to be heard. Thank you. ______________ http://www.orchid3d.com Edited June 1, 2008 by Orchid_Andy ommision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afterglow Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I've tried outsourcing jobs or even parts or jobs to China.. same experience.. nothing but pain.. Communication is definately the biggest issue, but I've found that a lot of the freelancers over there don't seem to understand drawings properly which is a massive headache.. they seem to generally have good art training but less training in the way of architecture/design. Also, clients seem to be opposed to it, they tend to want to be able to deal directly with the person doing the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAcky Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 And Clients can and do look down on a "sweatshop" style of working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) As a freelancer in the U.S. here is my take, how about the guys in the U.S. wanting to outsource, keep them in the U.S. I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, but this is why our economy is down now. All our work, not just artists, but plant/mill work as well, is going over seas Edited June 2, 2008 by Billabong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 And Clients can and do look down on a "sweatshop" style of working. Thank you for your comments. What a harsh word "sweatshop". But, I agree with you 100%. Many of the disciplined 3D artists are not being compensated properly. I do not know what others would do about this. For me, I am strongly opposing sweatshop style of working. Because my parents were the victims of sweatshop system when they first came to the U.S. Our 3D artists in China are being paid properly according to the current living standards in China. They receive base pay, and also commisions on each project they do. I will not allow sweatshop style of working in my company. As you said, my clients will abandon me if they find out about this. ______________ http://www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 I've tried outsourcing jobs or even parts or jobs to China.. same experience.. nothing but pain.. Communication is definately the biggest issue, but I've found that a lot of the freelancers over there don't seem to understand drawings properly which is a massive headache.. they seem to generally have good art training but less training in the way of architecture/design. Also, clients seem to be opposed to it, they tend to want to be able to deal directly with the person doing the work. Thank you for sharing your experience. Another problem with outsourcing is the cultural barrier which is really hard to overcome. Having the middle person can be really confusing. However, clients usually will make their judgment on either go globally or locally. Thank you. ______________ http://www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I am proud to announce that I will soon be releasing a new website: http://www.digitalsweatshop.net/ Please send samples of your work and how cheaply you are willing to go and how far you will go for that small pittance. Kidding aside I was going to try and do a job board a while back ago, but then Jeff opened his up so I didn't pursue it. Still have the domain I just like the sound of it! On another note, this is the angle I took and we seem to be doing all right: http://www.3dallusions.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=74 I think you can leverage the weak US dollar because of our high standard of living, in order to bring on talanted people to work with you. You can still pay them more than they typically make and make a profit and an honorable living without trying to take advantage of their situation. The hope is that gradually you bring everyones expectations and standard of living up to a similar level and then outsourcing loses it's economical incentive. Yes, you micro manage and go over everything three times, once with client, once documenting it and once going over the documented clients remarks with the artist. But there are a lot of talented people out their, no reason to think of it as them against us, I just think you need to know them (i.e. been around them in communities such as this and seen how they communicate.) and have some sort of communication already established. Of course I keep strange hours at times, what time is it in the UK, darn up till 3:00 AM to talk with someone, hey what is this jerk on the east coast doing calling me at 8:00 AM his time, I just got to bed............ We in the US are so lucky to speak a language that for the most part is the international language and a lot of international artist are very fluent in English, I think a bigger problems is people who have know real architectural training can't read plans, have no idea on scale of materials........... Hey, some of my best online friends are foreigners! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 I am proud to announce that I will soon be releasing a new website: http://www.digitalsweatshop.net/ Please send samples of your work and how cheaply you are willing to go and how far you will go for that small pittance. Kidding aside I was going to try and do a job board a while back ago, but then Jeff opened his up so I didn't pursue it. Still have the domain I just like the sound of it! On another note, this is the angle I took and we seem to be doing all right: http://www.3dallusions.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=74 I think you can leverage the weak US dollar because of our high standard of living, in order to bring on talanted people to work with you. You can still pay them more than they typically make and make a profit and an honorable living without trying to take advantage of their situation. The hope is that gradually you bring everyones expectations and standard of living up to a similar level and then outsourcing loses it's economical incentive. Yes, you micro manage and go over everything three times, once with client, once documenting it and once going over the documented clients remarks with the artist. But there are a lot of talented people out their, no reason to think of it as them against us, I just think you need to know them (i.e. been around them in communities such as this and seen how they communicate.) and have some sort of communication already established. Of course I keep strange hours at times, what time is it in the UK, darn up till 3:00 AM to talk with someone, hey what is this jerk on the east coast doing calling me at 8:00 AM his time, I just got to bed............ We in the US are so lucky to speak a language that for the most part is the international language and a lot of international artist are very fluent in English, I think a bigger problems is people who have know real architectural training can't read plans, have no idea on scale of materials........... Hey, some of my best online friends are foreigners! LOL Good luck on your new website. I will pay my visit there. ______________ http://www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) As a freelancer in the U.S. here is my take, how about the guys in the U.S. wanting to outsource, keep them in the U.S. I'm not trying to be mean or harsh, but this is why our economy is down now. All our work, not just artists, but plant/mill work as well, is going over seas Thank you for sharing your concerns. However, a bad economy is not triggered by outsourcing. Actually, outsourcing can help an economy grow. The U.S has enjoyed many years of prosperity, in part, was due to outsourcing. The current situation with our economy is just a normal cycle of the economy. We do not like it. But, it happens. ______________ http://www.orchid3d.com Edited June 2, 2008 by Orchid_Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 the complaints from our clients were like the water coming down from the Niagara Falls. The reason was that our 3D artists had very limited English. As a result, many mistakes were made in the projects. Since you seem to say that your parents are Chinese, I am thinking you probably also speak Chinese. Wouldn't the role of communicating with your artists in China be yours, and not your clients? It would probably be better if you were acting as the face of the firm and not a broker for the overseas studio. I am proud to announce that I will soon be releasing a new website: http://www.digitalsweatshop.net/ Kidding aside I was going to try and do a job board a while back ago, but then Jeff opened his up so I didn't pursue it. Still have the domain I just like the sound of it! It doesn't seem like you are kidding, you have a site and you posted the URL. Do you mean that you do not really plan to develop that site, or the idea behind it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Thank you for sharing your concerns. However, bad economy is not triggered by outsourcing. Actually, outsourcing can help an economy grow. The U.S have enjoyed many years of prosperity, in part, was due to outsourcing. The current situation with our economy is just a normal cycle of the economy. Nothing to worry. Very, very, very debatable points. Both of you are correct, to some degree; unfortunately, your interpretation doesn't do anything for the people who have lost jobs to outsourcing. You also ignore the indicators that we do have some things to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) It doesn't seem like you are kidding, you have a site and you posted the URL. Do you mean that you do not really plan to develop that site, or the idea behind it? Ernest, Like I said, I had originally planned to do a job board type site for professionals in CAD, 3D visualzation and CG. Then when Jeff started his job board, I consider Jeff a friend and thought that since he beat me to the punch I wouldn't pursue it, so I stopped at a theme and some classafied modules. The site is old and nothing done to it in ages, I just thought it was funny to post with the current conversation since there was an actual site to link to, I found it that much more entertaining (sometimes I just like to amuse myself). Anyway, no plans at this time to develop it, I have three domains and sites sitting like that one with no time at present to develop, I have too much with all my other sites, the XtremeGraphxs and Cage-Fighters fans of the world will just have to wait until I get around to them! Why do you ask, are you interested in being outsourced to India? LOL AJLynn, I would agree with yah, on a lot of that, I just think outsourcing is part of our reality now and rather than fight it and be set in our ways, adapt and use it's strengths. In reality I would have never left architecture and started doing archvis more or less full time if I hadn't had to deal with all the down falls of outsourcing as an architectural PM. I saw that I couldn't compete with the price head to head but then when you factor in all the coordination time I saw how I could compete, a lot of firms and companies in the US have started to see the downside to outsourcing. I think we as a team at our studio use it's strengths and avoid some of it's weaknesses, we have Yanks and international artist on our roster and we are not under bidding the average local artist by any means. It is a rather hot topic and I with I imagine a lot of American's were apprehensive and maybe felt down right screwed when that door was opened (Wasn't it a Clinton that did that to us), but shouldn't we try to do something politically if we don't like it and not blame the poor guy on distant soils trying to feed his family. Of course I am all for blaming the big company that fired you and gave your job to that guy, but don't forget it was the government that made it possible. Since I am not a political activist, I would rather look at the world as I do this site, one big happy international community, of course the American patriot in me chokes a bit when saying that, we do have a bit of built-in isolationalist in us outside of our hobby of geo-politics Edited June 2, 2008 by Russell L. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) Since you seem to say that your parents are Chinese, I am thinking you probably also speak Chinese. Wouldn't the role of communicating with your artists in China be yours, and not your clients? It would probably be better if you were acting as the face of the firm and not a broker for the overseas studio. Thank you for your advice. Yes. I do speak Chinese. That was why I was the person who went to China. I have been acting as the face of my firm. However, one person can not manage 20 artists.(we hired more people) That was why we hired project coordinators to do the job for us which is working very well. ________________ http://www.orchid3d.com Edited June 2, 2008 by Orchid_Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSpaulding Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 I am pretty much against outsourcing. IMO, we need to support local artists and local products more than we do. It's part of the reason our economy is the way it is right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) I for one am not blaming the guy on foreign soils at all. In fact if I was in their shoes. I would be doing the same thing,But I do think outsourcing jobs to other countries, just because they can underbid us so low, that we don't even have a chance,is wrong. I understand companies wanting to make as much money as they can on a job, but this is what has gotten us in this predicament to begin with. Companies I think are getting way to greedy. Another thing to think about is everything comes full circle. If all our companies start outsourcing everything they do, then how long before there is absolutely no work what so ever here. A little exaggerated maybe, but you never know Now I know my archi skills are no where near what they need to be, but when it comes to technical modeling, there isn't much I can't model. So if I am competing on a bid for a job,let's say to model a phone, and the overseas guys low balls the bid so low, where the only way I can match it is to do it for 5 bucks an hr(exaggeration) then what I am suppose to do, Pack up the kids,get some visas, and pick a country to move to I guess Edited June 2, 2008 by Billabong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 Outsourcing is unstoppable. It is just the reality. We must adapt to it, or we will be eliminated. ____________________ www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Outsourcing is unstoppable. It is just the reality. We must adapt to it, or we will be eliminated. Who do the Chinese outsource to? At some point it stops. At some point after that, whomever got the lowest position and is working the hardest for the least money looks around and thinks they deserve a little more reward for their hard work. They are probably right. Then what? Maybe one day the Chinese market will get so big and robust that the artists there will decide to find good labor at a reasonable rate, and look to the United States. Things change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) Who do the Chinese outsource to? At some point it stops. At some point after that, whomever got the lowest position and is working the hardest for the least money looks around and thinks they deserve a little more reward for their hard work. They are probably right. Then what? Maybe one day the Chinese market will get so big and robust that the artists there will decide to find good labor at a reasonable rate, and look to the United States. Things change. The Chinese merchants have outsourced their jobs to some African countries. What you said is right. The Chinese artists will look for a reasonable rate somewhere else if they can not find it at home. Actually, it is happening right now and right at CG Architect. Those artists that are good at English have refused to work for companies and worked as freelancers instead. They will not have to split the profits with the companies that way. And they can even lower the price since there is no company involved. That is why many Chinese artists want to study English and prepare for their future. ____________________ www.orchid3d.com Edited June 2, 2008 by Orchid_Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Who do the Chinese outsource to? Maybe one day the Chinese market will get so big and robust that the artists there will decide to find good labor at a reasonable rate, and look to the United States. Things change. That is the whole idea behind what we are trying to do, level the playing field, probably won't happen in my lifetime, but hopefully eventually the standards of living and expectations will level out. Pay overseas artist well and they won't want to work for minimum wages, then their bids won't be lower than yours, or at least close enough that the convenience of having you in the same timezone or country tilts the scales in your favor. Naive pipe dream I am sure, but you sink, swim or build a life raft Billabong, I totally agree with you that lots of companies pay a ridiculous fee per image and then charge 4x or more of that fee, still outbid local competition, and on top of that take credit for the work and don't allow the artist to take any credit for the work or use it in anyway (i.e. portfolio), I am not going to judge or comment, but I could see how it could annoy local artist However, never underestimate how much work is involved running a business, coordinating projects, marketing, chasing down leads .......................... The list goes on and on. It is also common practice for businesses to pay a maximum of 50% of their billing/income in order to cover operation fees, so if I heard someone charged their client twice what they paid the artist that actually did it, I wouldn't think harshly of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 2, 2008 Author Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) Very, very, very debatable points. Both of you are correct, to some degree; unfortunately, your interpretation doesn't do anything for the people who have lost jobs to outsourcing. You also ignore the indicators that we do have some things to worry about. I Agree with you. I did not put myself in those people's shoes. When people lose their jobs, no matter what, they do worry. ___________________ www.orchid3d.com Edited June 3, 2008 by Orchid_Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 2, 2008 Share Posted June 2, 2008 Billabong, I totally agree with you that lots of companies pay a ridiculous fee per image and then charge 4x or more of that fee, still outbid local competition, and on top of that take credit for the work and don't allow the artist to take any credit for the work or use it in anyway (i.e. portfolio), I am not going to judge or comment, but I could see how it could annoy local artist However, never underestimate how much work is involved running a business, coordinating projects, marketing, chasing down leads .......................... The list goes on and on. It is also common practice for businesses to pay a maximum of 50% of their billing/income in order to cover operation fees, so if I heard someone charged their client twice what they paid the artist that actually did it, I wouldn't think harshly of them. Ernest and I had talked about this a few weeks ago and he basically said the same thing, there is just no competing ,with these oversea guys. I'm afraid that the days of freelance in the U.S are coming to an end and there really is nothing we can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Bold Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 Globalisation is the key to creating a common world, and I am a strong supporter of this. Outsourcing, for some industries, is a key component of creating a global village, and i support this where appropriate. 3D architectural visualisation, however - IS NOT one of those industries suited for off-shore outsourcing. Whether it be China, India, wherever - from my experience talking with studios in the UK these past few years, outsourcing is a fad that has come and gone. Some practices learnt the hard way that unless you keep control of the pipeline it's more hassle than it's worth. My studio is based in a small city in Australia, though we source work from around the Asia Pacific and Africa. We focus on these places because we have indepth knowledge of their building products, environment, culture, and ecology and we have people based in several locations to serve such clients. We don't even bother trying to source work further abroad because we don't know the local customs elsewhere, and until we do, we'll prefer to leave it to other good studios out there who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 ...3D architectural visualisation, however - IS NOT one of those industries suited for off-shore outsourcing... ...My studio is based in a small city in Australia, though we source work from around the Asia Pacific and Africa... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest synbest Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I am a Chinese running 3D firm here in Toronto, Canada. Well I am pretty sad to see what you guys discussing about because I don't agree with outsourcing completely. I did outsource back to China couple of times but only asked them to do the modeling. Definitely we finalized images like mapping the models and rendered them out back here in Canada. I receive marketing emails claiming lower-than-others prices very often from 3D companies in China, India, Uruguay or somewhere. But I don't want to carry on any outsourcing with them other than the one or two 3D guys we are working with in China. As you know, nowadays the clients got too many choices in selecting a company when they have 3D rendering needs occasionally or once a while. Furthermore, they can even choose the cheapest one with big price difference if three of 3D companies come together with same quality. This is SAD, because I am not cheap. Too many firms like Andy's make the 3D rendering market from 'messy' to 'messier'. It's not good. Actually I am quitting the 3D renderings bit by bit because I have more interior design projects came in.(I am an interior designer) I am glad to see my company ramp up towards a design firm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I have to agree with Shane here Adrian, You say you are all for outsourcing,but then say its not for archi vis. Then you say that you outsource to Africa,and Asia Pacific.Just seems to me you are really contradicting your self here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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