Orchid_Andy Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 This is SAD, because I am not cheap. Too many firms like Andy's make the 3D rendering market from 'messy' to 'messier'. It's not good. Actually I am quitting the 3D renderings bit by bit because I have more interior design projects came in.(I am an interior designer) I am glad to see my company ramp up towards a design firm. Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Good luck on your designing career. I am sorry that outsourcing has destroyed some people like you in this market. Hey, you had a way out. Good job. ------------------ www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest synbest Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) To Andy, I came across your website long time ago while there were less sample works than now it has. Whatever your business pattern is, I dont think it's wise to a 3D firm to promote with slogan like 'outsource prices to have rendering service'. You made it too harsh to use the words like 'affordable labours' back in China to produce renderings' in your post. I don't like the way you discribe it that slave their talents as the value of 'labour' or how much you shew them the remuneration. I will appreciate it if you amend the wordings to a more respectful meaning. As they do the same great job like we doing here, their talents value same like ours do. Edited June 3, 2008 by synbest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Bold Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 I have to agree with Shane here Adrian, You say you are all for outsourcing,but then say its not for archi vis. Then you say that you outsource to Africa,and Asia Pacific.Just seems to me you are really contradicting your self here If you read my comment more clearly, you'll notice I say outsourcing only suits SOME industries, (ie, commodity-based, homogenous products, ie: chemicals/manufacturing) and that Arch Viz is not, and should not, be seen as a commodity. If you want further clarity, go do a few business degrees in economics, strategic management and marketing. Come on guys, we're a tailored service industry! We shouldn't be whoring ourselves to out-price eachother! As for my studio, all the projects we work on are produced within our company, so no, we don't outsource our work anywhere, and never will. We employ account managers in several locations to service a broad region of clients and projects. You may have been confusing the terms SOURCE and OUTSOURCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest synbest Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 You swing this talk too much off the road. I didn't say 'destroy' even though it really shakes someone's bottom line like mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 To Andy, I came across your website long time ago while there were less sample works than now it has. Whatever your business pattern is, I dont think it's wise to a 3D firm to promote with slogan like 'outsource prices to have rendering service'. You made it too harsh to use the words like 'affordable labours' back in China to produce renderings' in your post. I don't like the way you discribe it that slave their talents as the value of 'labour' or how much you shew them the remuneration. I will appreciate it if you amend the wordings to a more respectful meaning. As they do the same great job like we doing here, their talents value same like ours do. Thank you for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 You swing this talk too much off the road. I didn't say 'destroy' even though it really shakes someone's bottom line like mine. Ok. it shakes your bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 outsourcing only suits SOME industries, (ie, commodity-based, homogenous products, ie: chemicals/manufacturing) and that Arch Viz is not, and should not, be seen as a commodity. When someone calls you up and simply asks 'how much is a rendering?' its a commodity. I also feel renderings should not be a commodity, but increasingly they are. You can mostly thank digital, by the way, as the increasing sameness of our industry's output has turned a hand-crafted work of art into a mass-produced product. The rest of the shift comes from the erasing of global distances to an IP address. It was never practical for our clients to pit us against our off-shore counter-parts before the internet. You can fight back by maintaining artistic quality, attention and service to your client. One way to do that is to maintain control over your time (which translates to cost to the client) by being careful about how you use the most valuable employees--those that can add artistic excellence. Having your best talent (which for a small shop means the owner) doing tasks like modeling is bad for business in both how you use resources and how quickly you can execute your commissions. I have been making that mistake for at least a decade. Therefor, you need to think about how best to get the basic parts of your production done efficiently and cheaply and especially quickly. Guess where that leads--to cheap labor markets. Whatever is your strongest offering should be how you spend the majority of your time. If that's making renderings 'sing' then do that, not modeling, not building PCs, not even marketing. Leave those things to those who do them best. The larger vis firms in our industry have dedicated staff for those parts of their businesses, even at the partner level. Its smart, and while its harder to do as a small shop, you have to realize that doing it all yourself is no longer the best strategy. Once it was, as it promoted the idea of the artisan. Now it just makes you the low cost labor, regardless of where you are on Earth. they do the same great job like we doing here, their talents value same like ours do. That is the point I was making earlier. There are talented and hard-working people everywhere and all have an equal right to compete for work. It makes no sense to look down on others, or try to put up walls to hold off the inevitable. We all have to compete, and in some cases finding ways to work together may be a good solution. I don't have answers on nationalized business vs. outsourcing vs sourcing from abroad, but a lot of companies in arch-vis are trying different things out. The more we have open discussions about the issues the better, even though there is a lot of emotion involved. There are bound to be a few hurt feelings and insults along the way. So just keep an open mind as we move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) If you read my comment more clearly, you'll notice I say outsourcing only suits SOME industries, (ie, commodity-based, homogenous products, ie: chemicals/manufacturing) and that Arch Viz is not, and should not, be seen as a commodity. If you want further clarity, go do a few business degrees in economics, strategic management and marketing. Come on guys, we're a tailored service industry! We shouldn't be whoring ourselves to out-price eachother! As for my studio, all the projects we work on are produced within our company, so no, we don't outsource our work anywhere, and never will. We employ account managers in several locations to service a broad region of clients and projects. You may have been confusing the terms SOURCE and OUTSOURCE. I disagree with the U.S. outsourcing any thing, whethere its manufacturing or art. That causes less jobs here.But thanks for clarifying it Edited June 3, 2008 by Billabong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest synbest Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) My last employer outsourced renderings in China. They charged him about $300 per complete piece (no matter how many changes would be made) When I jumpstarted my own firm, the company's marketing bugger asked me whether I would offer them the renderings with same price?! What the hell! Some guys setup their rendering business more in the pattern a trading company runs - buy renderings from China or India like $300 or even lower and sale them to design firms like $800 or 1000. That's a smart business, but not represents a happy face to this industry. Nonetheless, you will eventually have a lot of problems like Andy has when you run the business like that. Another tendency is that the market now seems like any newbie knowing basic rendering techniques can put together several images and starts spamming their business to design firms and real estate companies around the world. Their only marketing bombshell is 'low price'. You can even buy one and get one free. Sadly, you can't do anything with this. Edited June 3, 2008 by synbest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 ...That's a smart business, but not represents a happy face to this industry. Nonetheless, you will eventually have a lot of problems like Andy has when you run the business like that... Smart in the short-term only. What will happen to businesses set up like that when the off-shore folks decide to put their price up? They'll find themselves barely covering their overheads and lacking the skills and man (or woman)-power to do the work on their own. Or in other words...out of work! HA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyca Posted June 3, 2008 Share Posted June 3, 2008 hey guys i visited a new client this morning, and this is what he told me. it's a 300 people real-estate and building firm, they send some work to overseas viz company, to china, india ... and so. they where completely disappointed by quality and services, they where spending more time writing long e-mails and drawing sketches for corrections. in the end they was loosing to much time, and never got really what they want. i was sitting there not saying a word with a big smile, i just would like to record him for showing to other clients. my tip is to give a good service to your client and visit him often to show new possibilities and business opportunities to show him all the advantage of having someone not to far away who understand his needs and culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 3, 2008 Author Share Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) my tip is to give a good service to your client and visit him often to show new possibilities and business opportunities to show him all the advantage of having someone not to far away who understand his needs and culture. You are absolutely right. That is why not everything can be outsourced. If outsoucing hurts our business, we need to stop it right away. If it helps, we need to continue on. It is just as simple as that. ___________________ www.orchid3d.com Edited June 3, 2008 by Orchid_Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illegalalieninbeijing Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I generally admire architectural visualization that came from China. Most of them are very artistically composed and their technical expertise is very astounding. I have nothing against them. I experienced first hand how things work in China. I did a little freelancing there by accident when I was in China and I have to say, it was quite frustrating and wasn't worth my while. First of all is the PAY. If those chinese bosses told me that they are paying me this much because I am a foreigner, I couldn't imagine just how much less or more they are paying their local guys. Communication was a little bit okey as I could understand a little bit of mandarin but not technical stuff I chinese. They do spoke english but not quite fluent and just like me, they had trouble understanding technical terms or other stuff in english. I did refuse the job but they insisted and I gave in. Second, I was given 3 whole days to finish 5 different interior perspectives of an office. To my surprise, I only have to work with a printed out floor plan. That's the only information they gave me. No finishes, no sketches, nothing. They told me that they trust me and I can decide on the finishes by myself. So you see, I've started working on it from the moment we finished having drinks that night. I stayed up all night. Go to my regular work and continue working when I got home. They would call from time to time to check on me. The following day I met with them to show them the progress of the model. A little comment here and there and I was off to work again. So there. I finished it and I did get paid. Good enough for a nice dinner and beers in a nice club. The bottom line is, I couldn't imagine how these local chinese guys do it 24/7 for probably lesser pay. It is not definitely the "western" way of work style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illegalalieninbeijing Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Here's a thought. To those who are outsourcing their works overseas mainly in asia. How many of those outsourcing companies or freelance based in overseas have legal/original versions of softwares mainly used in producing architectural visualization? If we do outsource our work with them, are we not guilty of fueling software piracy and copyright issues? It quite obvious that we find the software we use are very expensive. What more if it is in asia? Most of these guys will resort to copies which can be easily bought from any shady guy on a curb or peddled door to door, office to office due to stiffening competition. I've seen dvd farms in which you can select from a list what software or film you want to be cut into a dvd. Lastly, why spend 2 bucks for a dvd when they can download for free. That's how it is really easy to acquire software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 How many of those outsourcing companies or freelance based in overseas have legal/original versions of softwares mainly used in producing architectural visualization? If we do outsource our work with them, are we not guilty of fueling software piracy and copyright issues? Only if we know it for a fact and chose to ignore it. I realize you have some first-hand knowledge of the business environment in China, or at least one area of it, but we are not going to advance the industry by turning on our own people. Everybody has advantages, some fair and some unfair. If everyone in arch-vis around the world agreed to give up the small advantage they may have by using un-licenced software, what are we prepared to give up of our advantages in the so-called 'first world' economies? I agree that the playing field is not level, but guess who's standing at the top of the slope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I don't know how one could possibly verify that your consultants are using legal software. Heck, it's often hard to recognize the stuff when you're looking at it. A couple years ago I needed another copy of Windows so I went on the net and found what I though was a company selling discounted OEM copies. Installed it and everything was fine for a while, then the "Windows Genuine Advantage" came up and told me I had a fake copy. I checked with a Microsoft person who agreed it was fake and sold me a real copy at half price. (It's so prevalent that they actually have a program you get off their web site that checks the installed files, deletes the licensing and relicenses it with a new serial number.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipjor Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 i've personally used these guys for (modeling only about 11 residental homes) gouprendering.com in China. my experience was good, the turnaround was fast, there were no errors in modeling from sketch elevations.. the way i look at it is all of us in the USA buy Nike shoes and don't think twice about were/how they were made. I challenge anyone here complaining about outsourcing to tell me they dont' have anything in their closet "Made In China" I certainly don't have all the answers to these diffcult enconmic problems but it seems to me you either have to be for or against outsourcing , on all levels.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 the way i look at it is all of us in the USA buy Nike shoes and don't think twice about were/how they were made. I challenge anyone here complaining about outsourcing to tell me they dont' have anything in their closet "Made In China" Do you know of tennis shoes that are not made on foreign soils, or for that fact, try and find me one toy that isn't made in Asia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 New Balance sells "Made In USA" athletic shoes and around here there are a bunch of stores that specialize in domestic toys. There's been a lot of demand for that lately after incidents like the date-rape-drug toys. But yeah, it's getting harder to find American products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipjor Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 (edited) Do you know of tennis shoes that are not made on foreign soils, or for that fact, try and find me one toy that isn't made in Asia. http://www.nmctoys.com/ http://www.toysmadeinamerica.com/ Edited June 4, 2008 by pipjor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Well I stand corrected, thanks for the links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 5, 2008 Author Share Posted June 5, 2008 i've personally used these guys for (modeling only about 11 residental homes) gouprendering.com in China. my experience was good, the turnaround was fast, there were no errors in modeling from sketch elevations.. the way i look at it is all of us in the USA buy Nike shoes and don't think twice about were/how they were made. I challenge anyone here complaining about outsourcing to tell me they dont' have anything in their closet "Made In China" I certainly don't have all the answers to these diffcult enconmic problems but it seems to me you either have to be for or against outsourcing , on all levels.. Agree!!! ____________ http://www.orchid3d.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyca Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 there is one thing that should be clear. We are living in a global market today, and the economies has his rules, one of the major rules is COMPETITION. And you know what ? we here in Europe and America are the ones who invented this rules. So my problem is not know if the chines and other emerging economies has the right to sell their products and services on our market. My aim is to discuss with other professionals who share the same position as me in this market and find ideas on "how can we stay competitive" or "should we change to higher segment of this market ?" "do we have other outcomes for our product and service"... For the moment we have the leadership in our market, and if we are smart we know that we need to change before the wave ends. my 2 cens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchid_Andy Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 there is one thing that should be clear. We are living in a global market today, and the economies has his rules, one of the major rules is COMPETITION. And you know what ? we here in Europe and America are the ones who invented this rules. So my problem is not know if the chines and other emerging economies has the right to sell their products and services on our market. My aim is to discuss with other professionals who share the same position as me in this market and find ideas on "how can we stay competitive" or "should we change to higher segment of this market ?" "do we have other outcomes for our product and service"... For the moment we have the leadership in our market, and if we are smart we know that we need to change before the wave ends. my 2 cens. what you said really makes sense to me. We all need to be proactive and to change accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Outsourcing is not easy. It's almost an art form in itself. But, when it works, it works very well. I have no problem with outsourcing and neither do any of my clients. They just want a good product and good service at a fair price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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