Let's in-source our projects!!!

[TheAllusionisst]

Oh hell no. No no no no no. The software companies are even worse than the government at stuff like this. (Except for the TSA. Nobody is worse than that.) Remember what people went through when Microsoft decided to add a DRM scheme to all HD content playback? Or all that WGA crap? Not the screenwriters, the Windows thing. Do you really think the BSA would put their certification on people and companies if they had anything less than realtime monitoring of the entire contents of a computer and everything running on it? And anybody wanting to maintain their privacy automatically being assumed to be a software pirate... and then somebody gets into their database... No, I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

 

Did you know that MacOSX Leopard has no protection at all - no serial number, nothing, you can just copy the DVD and pass it out to all your friends - and in the first few days it was out it sold more copies than Vista, with all its protections, did in its first few months? All 37 Vista versions combined.

 

With the software industry it could be a volunteer item and I wasn't a proponent of it, somebody else mentioned it and I said if it was going to happen then I think this is how I would think is best......................

 

MacOSX Leopard? what good would it do to have it unless you are running a Mac, seems self serving and a benefit for Apple. It might also be a legal hassle to sell a repackaged version of Linux! LOL

 

Hey, once again, I am not saying I want any review but if so I would rather have a volunteer system overseen by the industry, just my opinion. As for Mac, I just had to take the shot they are the best 'Spin Doctors' in the world, Sell you at twice the cost a PC running Linux with a spiffy interface and core apps inside a pretty package. Yes they have a lot going for them I do not deny that what so ever, they just have control of all the hardware in their system so it is easier to establish a reliable system if you aren't supporting thousands of manufacturers like MS. Great system, but not as innovative as they pretend to be just very good at aesthetics and maintaining a focussed target demographics. IMHO Both Apple and MS are successful and have merits, one a astute if not 'ruthless businessman' while the other is a 'spin doctor' extrodinair! I admire both to some extent.

 

Man, I have been fiesty the last couple of days, sorry to continually de-rail the thread. I think we all have good points and somewhere inbetween them is the right answer.

[TheAllusionisst]

The software industry would need to create a department as well, and we'd pay for it of course as software customers. Only it would cost less, as it would be outsourced.

 

Where did this myth of government being vastly less efficient than corporations come from, anyway? On average it's actually not true, with exceptions when the corporations are breaking the law or outsourcing.

 

Edit:

 

I'm not saying there should be a federal department of certifying non-software-pirates. I actually don't think it's a good idea to have anybody doing that.

 

I think we are pretty much on the same wave length, but the software industry should pay for it in their own self interest, not going to even try thinking that one all the way through but it could be argued they would be saving themselves money.

 

Not going to to get into a debate on private sector versus government, I do know of many situations where the government had to, or choose to let services contract out to private sector at tremendous savings

 

Hey lets start talking Unions and really take this thread in a whole new heated direction. I think I will leave so that Ernest thread can return to normal. I respect you all and like playing devils advocate and stirring things up when I am in a certain mood.

 

Cheers! I hope the idea works out for some of you and that Ernest has enough business to throw lots of work at you!

[AJLynn]

MacOSX Leopard? what good would it do to have it unless you are running a Mac, seems self serving and a benefit for Apple. It might also be a legal hassle to sell a repackaged version of Linux! LOL

 

Hey, once again, I am not saying I want any review but if so I would rather have a volunteer system overseen by the industry, just my opinion. As for Mac, I just had to take the shot they are the best 'Spin Doctors' in the world, Sell you at twice the cost a PC running Linux with a spiffy interface and core apps inside a pretty package. Yes they have a lot going for them I do not deny that what so ever, they just have control of all the hardware in their system so it is easier to establish a reliable system if you aren't supporting thousands of manufacturers like MS. Great system, but not as innovative as they pretend to be just very good at aesthetics and maintaining a focussed target demographics. IMHO Both Apple and MS are successful and have merits, one a astute if not 'ruthless businessman' while the other is a 'spin doctor' extrodinair! I admire both to some extent.

 

Now, that I take exception to, and it has nothing to do with what I was saying, but. You do know that OSX isn't derived from Linux and does not use any Linux code base, right? It's not even close to the same kernel infrastructure, they just are both based on Unix. OSX, btw, is now a certified Unix platform, which Linux never was. Apple is succeeding because they're strong on the fundamentals, which Microsoft is not: superior product, superior marketing and superior service, making their product a specialty item instead of a commodity PC. It's not spin, it's very sound business.

 

There's an Apple store 3 blocks from my office with a training center that offers 8-hour classes on Aperture and Final Cut for free, has a program where you can pay $99/year for an hour a week of personal tutoring (on any subject including video editing and Creative Suite, which is taught by some graphic designers they recruited from some good companies) and when you need tech support you get it in person. Today I walked by it and it was raining, and they had an umbrella cover dispenser by the door and it was staffed. There's nobody else out there giving anywhere near this level of service on PCs.

 

People want Apple products, and the boxes they came in. People don't want Microsoft product, they resent Microsoft and they pirate Microsoft products. Apple lets their customers pirate their products, and the customers choose not to.

 

Maybe that's part of the answer to this outsourcing thing - people will pay more to get more if you do a good enough job of convincing them that it's important. If there's a Chinese company with employees making $5/hour and unable to discuss the project with the client, spamming everybody whose email address is on an architecture firm's web site, you need to be the Apple to their Microsoft.

[vpii@vpii.com]

I have sub contracted modeling in the past. Most contractors outside the USA want higher fees now. The fact is now in the USA the dollar has fallen so much, about 20% maybe more now just the exchange rate gives the advantage to USA based companies. Not even discounting you already make yourself more completive to work outside the USA. It is about time maybe to start marketing to outside markets. Seems to be where the money is right now. I guess turn a negative of a soft market here to a positive to outside the USA. Anyone else starting to think this way?

[blowback]

..... - people will pay more to get more if you do a good enough job of convincing them that it's important. If there's a Chinese company with employees making $5/hour and unable to discuss the project with the client, spamming everybody whose email address is on an architecture firm's web site, you need to be the Apple to their Microsoft.

 

I couldn't agree more. My experience over the past year has been exactly that. People will pay more if they think it is worth more. So why would I want to shave margins and compete with $5/hr teams and the like when I can focus on selling the art and craft. Do less, but get paid more. People will always pay more for that. My humble 2.

Edited June 4, 2008 by blowback

[ikinman]

 

Not going to to get into a debate on private sector versus government, I do know of many situations where the government had to, or choose to let services contract out to private sector at tremendous savings

 

 

I would love you to name one situation that you just described, with some detail of the cost savings, and preferably that didn't happen thirty years ago. While you're at it, responding to your earlier comment that government should be reduced by 80%, some specifics as to what programs should be cut to reduce total government spending by that amount would be enlightening.

 

I'm not trying to be glib here. I just tire of those who throw out numbers like that with no backing. And to me it's relevant - the biggest issue we are going to be facing in the next year after the election (whoever wins) is choosing the role of government in health care. 15% of my company's expenses are on health care for my employees, more than I spend on software or on computers. Rent and direct salary are the only categories that are higher.

 

Now to get into more detail, a typical insurance company spends a higher percentage of it's money on administrative costs (mainly to go through invoices to figure out if they're going to cover it or not) than equivalent government agencies. From the New England Journal of Medicine:

 

"In 1999 U.S. private insurers retained $46.9 billion of the $401.2 billion they collected in premiums. Their average overhead (11.7 percent) exceeded that of Medicare (3.6 percent) and Medicaid (6.8 percent). Overall, public and private insurance overhead totaled $72.0 billion — 5.9 percent of the total health care expenditures in the United States, or $259 per capita.

 

The overhead costs of Canada's provincial insurance plans totaled $311 million (1.3 percent) of the $23.5 billion they spent for physicians and hospital services. An additional $17 million was spent to administer federal government health plans. The overhead of Canadian private insurers averaged 13.2 percent of the $8.4 billion spent for private coverage. Overall, insurance overhead accounted for 1.9 percent of Canadian health care spending, or $47 per capita ."

 

Source: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/349/8/768

 

Oh, Canada, indeed.

 

We now return to our regularly scheduled thread, which I'll follow up on momentarily

 

-Ian

[Scott Erstad]

Ian, nice post there on the numbers. BTW, US Govt spending in 2007...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007#Total_spending

 

Proposed DoD budget for 2009 - 651 billion dollars of approx 2.7 Trillion dollars.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/defense.html

 

There are a few dollars that can be cut out of that second one.

 

just a thought.

Scott

[ikinman]

 

There are a few dollars that can be cut out of that second one.

 

just a thought.

Scott

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

To try to get this thread back on track, I see two ways for Ernest’s idea to work.

 

1) Pick a low wage area near a college or other educational area. Ernest, you seem to want to have this operate in New York, but NYC is certainly not low-wage, and Alabama or the Plains States may be too far away, so I would consider upstate New York. It has several advantages: Albany and Buffalo have architecture schools, the area is depressed economically and so has depressed wages, and the local municipalities would probably offer incentives to start up a company there. These were all considerations that we had when we looked at Alabama – the same reasons car companies are choosing to put factories there. Grab the students, set up an office, and go.

 

2) Don’t make this geographically dependent. Instead operate virtually, and create a virtual community of modelers and such (perhaps working with schools). Basically set up a website that matches a client with a modeler over the web and take a cut to pay for organizing the whole thing. Or be more centralized and do the matching behind the scenes. This has several advantages. First it makes scaling a lot easier as you don’t have the overhead of an office and dedicated staff. Second it may make it easier to offer additional, and higher value, services as the times change. When firms in China started doing this several years ago, a lot of the work offered was modeling; now it’s difficult to find a firm that will offer only modeling, as they want to do the whole rendering. The disadvantage to this approach is that working virtually does place limits on quality control, which really is going to be the business definer for the next several years

 

Of course, these are not outlines of a rendering business – they’re staffing businesses. It’s what everyone needs to remember about ‘growing’ a rendering company; as a service industry the only business model is to pay an employee 90 cents and charge your client a buck for the privilege. Then you scale up by adding more warm bodies to the equation. The principal is the same whether you are a renderer or a building contractor. As well, your main concern will not be about the artistry of what you (or, rather, your employees) are doing, but instead about maintaining enough work coming in to ‘feed the beast’ that you’ve created.

 

-Ian

[vizwhiz]

ok i am in, HIRE ME

 

Arizona is a 'right To starve state'

i just got laid off at work yesterday

 

at least i got laid .... (somehow)

 

willing To work, Your Place or Mine?

 

3d modeling in autocad (i do modeling better Than lighting/rendering)

 

call NOW! (cad) Operator(s) is standing by

 

**

 

EBIII, do you remember John Gnagy?

 

i just found my 1958 book "Learn To Draw with John Gnagy"

i Think his TV show was still in Black & White, BFE TV, used To watch

 

every saturday

[Ernest Burden III]

 

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

 

Ernest, you seem to want to have this operate in New York

 

I should have stayed in bed today.

 

I do not necessarily want this operation anywhere. I want to put the debate over outsourcing to a test.

 

My point is--you don't like outsourcing, then let's look at in-sourcing. Is it still viable? If so, let's get it going beyond the old model of one guy like me sitting in his attic playing with pencils. Rendering now requires more production capacity than it used to. Can we do that where we live? If so, then let's get it moving now because the rest of the world is passing us by. If not, then let's stop fighting the obvious and focus on partnerships and collaboration across borders.

 

What I sincerely would like to see end--today--is the division between our people because of where they are in the world or where they are in the economic cycle. The Chinese and Indians and Thai and Africans are not our enemies, they are our colleagues. In some ways they have out-competed us so we call them 'cheap' and 'dishonest'. I don't want to lose my job any more than anyone else. But I don't want to keep it by attacking others no different from myself.

 

In-sourcing--make it work or accept the necessity and even opportunity of out-sourcing.

[gfa2]

 

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

 

 

Thanks Ernest!

 

Just had my laugh for the day.

[Orchid_Andy]

I introduced few of the American designers who are working with us to builders in China. I guess We can call this in-sourcing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

___________________

 

http://www.orchid3d.com

[johnvid]

VIRTUAL SWEAT SHOPS whatever will they think of next!

 

Who is it that decides how long something should take to do? When you do something as a bit of a labour of love, you may end up spending far too much time on something just because you want it to look as good as possible, yet still in the eyes of a master, they may think it doesn't look good enough, or has been done wrong, or could be done by them in a couple of hours... and you wouldn't want to be in a situation where the people who just built the geometry, hand you over a load of data, and then you spend ages trying to figure out whats what, or the person in charge of finnishing the renders, ends up being the bottle neck and getting all the blame for everyone's 'minor' flaws that turn in to major ones, a little like chinese whispers...Could be nightmare without a strong (but fair) leader, DO THEY EXIST IN THE CAPATILIST WORLD

 

I will work for Food, Peanut Oil, Payment in Kind, Kit, or What U Have?

Edited June 5, 2008 by johnvid
I cant spell

[manta]

 

Maybe you missed my thread a couple weeks ago....

 

http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/30059-build-your-own-mac.html

[AJLynn]

Surprisingly on topic, now that I think about it: http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2004/11/15/andas_game/index.html

[Devin Johnston]

I read most of this thread and although I like Ernest's idea and would like to keep work and dollars in this country I don't see how that's going to be possible. Recently I was presented with a project with an extremely tight deadline and budget. I estimated that to model the project it would take me at least at least 40 hours. Reluctantly I contacted a company that had been sending me promotional materials from China, the quote they gave me blew my mind. They were able to model the entire project to a level of detail that I would never have taken it to in 20 hours and their fee was 15 times less than what I would have had to charge. The only disadvantage I had to deal with was the time difference but other than that they were perfect.

 

This was an insanely complex project and to get it done in that time they had to have had at least two people on it which puts their hourly rate at $7/hour. This is what you'd have to pay someone here in order to compete with these guys. I frankly don't see how that's possible, most people with the skills necessary to do this would never consider working for so little.

[Billabong]

I read most of this thread and although I like Ernest's idea and would like to keep work and dollars in this country I don't see how that's going to be possible. Recently I was presented with a project with an extremely tight deadline and budget. I estimated that to model the project it would take me at least at least 40 hours. Reluctantly I contacted a company that had been sending me promotional materials from China, the quote they game me blew my mind. The were able to model the entire project to a level of detail that I would never have taken it to in 20 hours and their fee was 15 times less than what I would have had to charge. The only disadvantage I had to deal with was the time difference but other than that they were perfect.

 

This was an insanely complex project and to get it done in that time they had to have had at least two people on it which puts their hourly rate at $7/hour. This is what you'd have to pay someone here in order to compete with these guys. I frankly don't see how that's possible, most people with the skills necessary to do this would never consider working for so little.

 

There in lies the problem, A lot of these countries are third world, and 7 bucks an hr to these guys is damn good money. There is just no way to compete with it

 

Which is why I think the age of freelance in the U.S. is over

[Nic H]

Why wouldnt you want to take advantage of outsourcing for modelling and repetative boring tasks if its going to be decent quality and cheaper?

 

This cheap labour, if you choose to use it is going to enable you to spend time on things you want to, things that are going to make a difference in work - quality like textures, lighting and composistion? the things that you wouldnt want to get outsourced.

 

By not using this you are falling behind for the sake of some misguided nationalist sentiment. Outsourcing is here to stay and is a great oppurtunity for everyone, im sure in a few years chinese companies may be competing for jobs on a creative level rather than just as a modelling service

 

We have used chinese modelling services quiet extensively and with a bit of training up and getting the modelling process to our liking its been great.

 

Freelancers in the US / UK / Australia etc are jsut going to have to adapt embrace and recognise the benifits of outsourcing and how to work with it / compete against it

[Devin Johnston]

By not using this you are falling behind for the sake of some misguided nationalist sentiment.

 

Believe it or not there are still people who believe in the statement "ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country" JFK.

[Billabong]

Why wouldnt you want to take advantage of outsourcing for modelling and repetative boring tasks if its going to be decent quality and cheaper?

 

This cheap labour, if you choose to use it is going to enable you to spend time on things you want to, things that are going to make a difference in work - quality like textures, lighting and composistion? the things that you wouldnt want to get outsourced.

 

"The cheap labor" Now there is the exact phrase that pretty much sums it all up. cheap labor is what's killing us all. For example, I remeber when I was younger and driving by constructions sites. you would be lucky if you saw one mexican out there working, now your lucky if you see one american on those construction sites. These mexicans work for nothing and on top of everything else, most of them are illegal aliens, but do you think the contractor cares, Hell no he doesn't care, all he cares about is paying about 8 dollars less an hr to his laborers.

 

I'm not putting the mexicans down, but usless we decide to get about 20 people all living in the same house, there is no way we can compete with the labor on these construction sites

 

And what makes you think it will just stop at outsourcing just the modeling, give it a few years, before you know these guys will be speaking perfect english and there will be no barriers thats holding you back from outsourcing the entire job overseas. To think this will just stop at the modeling process is just a little naive in my opinion.

 

By not using this you are falling behind for the sake of some misguided nationalist sentiment. Outsourcing is here to stay and is a great oppurtunity for everyone, im sure in a few years chinese companies may be competing for jobs on a creative level rather than just as a modelling service

 

I'm sure in a few years we may just be the third world countries

 

 

 

Freelancers in the US / UK / Australia etc are jsut going to have to adapt embrace and recognise the benifits of outsourcing and how to work with it / compete against it

 

Emabrace what? there is nothing to embrace, rather accept the fact that I am losing my job to a company overseas, that charges fees that in no way what so ever I can compete with, is that what I am suppose to be embracing?

Edited June 5, 2008 by Billabong

[KristopherLee]

^ ^ agreed 99.5%

 

.5% left because ya just never know.

 

And remember, the next time you call your website provider, cell phone company, paypal or otherwise with some problem, don't get mad that the people answering the phone have no clue what theyre saying or doing.

 

Outsourcing is cool.*

Edited June 5, 2008 by KristopherLee
*not

[Nic H]

Why dont you use a modelling service and build it into your price for a job then spend the time you would normally spend modellign getting more work? or work on improving your other skills?

 

You are coming across as slightly xenophobic, what would be the problem if everyone started speaking english and competing on equal footing? People working in 3rd world countries see 1st world countries making alot of money for things that they can do just as well, its natural they would aspire to take a piece of that pie that up until a few years ago has been inaccessible but now with cheaper technology is finally reachable.

 

How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and all you did was cheap modelling for some European company but didnt get access to where teh real money was? Wouldnt you aspire to get those same projects for yourself? Its globalisation and there is no stopping it, and its not a bad thing.

[Sawyer]

We are not the first profession to have to deal with this we wont be the last. Watching this happen has given me a new outlook on a lot of stuff and mostly I see that I cannot afford to buy American goods. From my computer, to my clothes to my dvds, to my car, to my house, to the food I eat, I see that most of the products I have are made in other countries or use labor that is cheaper than US standards.

 

I am sorry Ernest, I am afraid your suggestion is lost in the haze of fear, insecurity, misconceptions, and anger that covers this topic. I don't know how to cut through it or what could possibly happen to change this. Its hard, there aren't easy solutions and it is so emotional. I think outsourcing your work has great benefits HUGE price savings that can help us. And people in our industry are using them right now as we speak. There are many people here who are using overseas talents and just love it. They also aren't speaking up here which is a little sad but I understand it.

 

It is not the end of the world or the end of the US economy but this shows me how flexible you have to be in this new economy. Your whole business model needs to be able to change in an instant.

[KristopherLee]

The point is not having less fortunate people making money, it's the fact that when you begin to lose your jobs to people who will do it for less. It is less costly to live in other countries than it is here in the US.

 

When you charge a certain price for a job because its meeting the standard of living, even if you're charging less than the guy up the street, when someone else from another country can afford to charge even less, you become a victim of such outsourcing.

[Devin Johnston]

You are coming across as slightly xenophobic, what would be the problem if everyone started speaking english and competing on equal footing?

 

 

That's the entire problem; there is no equal footing when you’re going from 1st world to 3rd world unless you bring the 1st world down to their level. Do you think people in China or India are concerned about using pirated software, or providing health care to their workers, or holiday pay, or sick leave. Their standard of living is so far below what we would consider acceptable that they are happy to get $20 a day for 12 hours of hard work, would you work for so little. The point is that sure it's easy to outsource modeling work now but in a few years they are going to want the entire project and they will be able to produce it at a fraction of what you can. This is either going to force people like you and I to work 15 times harder for the same pay or starve to death. Once you start to devalue the work by using cheap labor and an unbalanced trade system the entire system will eventually collapse.