Let's in-source our projects!!!

[Nic H]

Then you need to change the way you work and adapt then. Closing off your industry to the rest of the world is only going to work for so long, until someone wants the cheapest price they can get.

[Billabong]

You are coming across as slightly xenophobic, what would be the problem if everyone started speaking english and competing on equal footing? People working in 3rd world countries see 1st world countries making alot of money for things that they can do just as well, its natural they would aspire to take a piece of that pie that up until a few years ago has been inaccessible but now with cheaper technology is finally reachable.

 

How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and all you did was cheap modelling for some European company but didnt get access to where teh real money was? Wouldnt you aspire to get those same projects for yourself? Its globalisation and there is no stopping it, and its not a bad thing.

 

Ask me that question again in a few years when your out of a job

[CHE]

"The cheap labor" Now there is the exact phrase that pretty much sums it all up. cheap labor is what's killing us all. For example, I remeber when I was younger and driving by constructions sites. you would be lucky if you saw one mexican out there working, now your lucky if you see one american on those construction sites. These mexicans work for nothing and on top of everything else, most of them are illegal aliens, but do you think the contractor cares, Hell no he doesn't care, all he cares about is paying about 8 dollars less an hr to his laborers.

 

I'm not putting the mexicans down, but usless we decide to get about 20 people all living in the same house, there is no way we can compete with the labor on these construction sites

 

Brian,

 

I don't see the need for you to use such stereotypical and xenophobic remarks to get your point across. It reads rather insulting from my point of view as I was born in Mexico. These Mexicans come to the US forced by the lack of jobs in their country. Most of them have hardly any education; they come from little towns in the central west of the country were agricultural jobs have drastically disappeared within the last 20+ years. I don't want to go into explain why is that Mexico cannot offer good jobs to these people (internal and international political affairs involved). It is obvious that there is demand for their "cheap labor" here in the US so instead of label them as the bad guys look at the corporations that are taking advantage of their situation.

 

Anyway, back to the topic. Outsourcing is good and bad depending from which side of the fence you look at it. I agree with Ernest about the idea of trying to "in source" the jobs first before thinking about outsourcing. I think that most freelancers would be willing to lower their cost as exchange for steady work any day.

 

Ernesto

Edited June 5, 2008 by CHE

[Billabong]

I am not trying to insult you or anyone else, Che, but it sounds to me like what your saying is, since all these 3rd world countries don't have jobs, then hey why not come over here and take ours.

 

And on another note, if you guys feel so badly for these countries and how poor they are, then instead of accepting what they charge, offer them the same amount that someone over here would charge.

 

I'm not labeling the other countries ,bad guys, im labeling us the bad guys

 

I know I have probably made a few people here mad, and If I did, well then I apologize, this is a very sensitive subject for me, especially when it involves my family.

 

Btw, its Brandon, not Brian

Edited June 5, 2008 by Billabong

[CHE]

That's the entire problem; there is no equal footing when you’re going from 1st world to 3rd world unless you bring the 1st world down to their level. Do you think people in China or India are concerned about using pirated software, or providing health care to their workers, or holiday pay, or sick leave. Their standard of living is so far below what we would consider acceptable that they are happy to get $20 a day for 12 hours of hard work, would you work for so little. The point is that sure it's easy to outsource modeling work now but in a few years they are going to want the entire project and they will be able to produce it at a fraction of what you can. This is either going to force people like you and I to work 15 times harder for the same pay or starve to death. Once you start to devalue the work by using cheap labor and an unbalanced trade system the entire system will eventually collapse.

 

 

Exactly, there is not balance because we don't have any legal protection right now. Nobody is being penalized here in the US for outsourcing work to people with illegal software. I think that we can protect ourselves by educating our clients/employers about the issues of pirate software and working conditions in those countries. We can wish there was a law that could prevent people from outsourcing any work to any one without legal software but there isn't so what else can we do?

Edited June 5, 2008 by CHE

[Sawyer]

Maybe its a good time to stop and try to pick up the pieces.

 

I am not sure this is a thread that can be rescued or an idea that can be rescued but I think we have had our say and this will only get more emotional.

 

Its list time. If you are interested in collaborating put your name down. It seems weird to say but I think the idea is ONLY if you live in the USA. Thats the idea right? Sorry everyone else.

Lets get a list and then we will talk price.

[CHE]

I am not trying to insult you or anyone else, Che, but it sounds to me like what your saying is, since all these 3rd world countries don't have jobs, then hey why not come over here and take ours.

 

And on another note, if you guys feel so badly for these countries and how poor they are, then instead of accepting what they charge, offer them the same amount that someone over here would charge.

 

I'm not labeling the other countries ,bad guys, im labeling us the bad guys

 

I know I have probably made a few people here mad, and If I did, well then I apologize, this is a very sensitive subject for me, especially when it involves my family.

 

Btw, its Brandon, not Brian

 

I completly understand, I have the same concerns. You don't have to apologize

[RyanSpaulding]

Exactly, I think that best way to protect ourselves is by educating our clients/employers about the issues of pirate software and working conditions in those countries.QUOTE]

 

...This assumes the good in people....and that morality, capitalism, and human nature go harmoniously holding-hands into the sunset. This, unfourtunately, isn't true.

 

Wal-Mart and Nike are good examples of this. I've told countless people about Wal-Mart's immoral pracitices...no one cares. They want the cheap price.

 

*shrugs*

 

So I don't think this 'education' protects us at all. JMO.

[Ernest Burden III]

I am not sure this is a thread that can be rescued

 

Me, either.

 

sure it's easy to outsource modeling work now but in a few years they are going to want the entire project and they will be able to produce it at a fraction of what you can.

 

Things change over time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. But for now there are still opportunities for people working in the so-called developed world, so re-tool and compete.

 

I agree with Ernest about the idea of trying to "in source" the jobs first before thinking about outsourcing.

 

I am sorry Ernest, I am afraid your suggestion is lost in the haze of fear, insecurity, misconceptions, and anger that covers this topic.

 

Looks that way.

 

It may already be too late for in-sourcing to work. That's what I'm trying to find out. If it is, then we can all stop complaining about out-sourcing and figure out how to move forward as our industry changes.

[Devin Johnston]

I don't think a US company is going to be able to compete with an overseas company on price for very long without loosing a lot of the talent or going under. You'd have to offer them something that the overseas firms can't, that could be quality, convenience, dependability or in other words really good customer service. Speed could also be a selling point if you can produce your work faster than the other guy which probably is possible. You'd really need to do a spectacular job on marketing; you need to sell the idea that paying less for something can come with significant disadvantages.

 

The one thing that really bothers me about outsourcing is that you have no recourse if the company doing the work for you decides not to finish it, or they mess something up and won't fix it. I don't know how often that happens but I don't like the though of putting all my eggs in one basket like that. I feel much better about dealing with a company that is within my legal grasp.

[cccj]

The Chinese and Indians and Thai and Africans are not our enemies, they are our colleagues. In some ways they have out-competed us so we call them 'cheap' and 'dishonest'. I don't want to lose my job any more than anyone else. But I don't want to keep it by attacking others no different from myself.

In-sourcing--make it work or accept the necessity and even opportunity of out-sourcing.

 

As a Chinese I m glad I finally see someone said that we are not enemies, we are colleagues. I was reading this thread and all the replies, I was almost too sad to say anything, untill I saw these words. I have been in this business for 10 years, and the first foreign client of my company is a Japanese architect, Isozaki, who was designing a project in the city I live in, we loved the design and learned a lot from this. Not like US and most Europe countries, China is a developing country, there are many constructions here in China every year and many people here like different or unique designs, so many buildings are designed by oversea arthitects. We work for domestic architects and firms too, but I never heard anyone complains that foreign architects are grabing job from them, actually many local architects are very glad to have this kind of opportunity to learn.

 

I m not sure how many people have ever come to China, many Chinese people like using ipod, playing PS3, drinking cocacola and driving Europe cars? Chinese nation does not care where a product is from, what they care is whether it is good.

 

30 years ago, China was lagging behind alot, after 30 years of development, we are still lagging behind comparing with western developed countries, it's same in CG industry.Under the circumstances, we have to work harder and study harder to try to catch up with western advanced steps. And at the same time, we believe hard working is a virtue, which I was educated since I was a little child. And what i see is that many chinese artists volunteer to stay at office after work or on weekends to continue working or learning.

 

Sometime when we work with oversea clients, I have to say it's hard to find them on weekends. I m not complaining, I understand people have the right. Some artists here don't like to work overtime either and some of our oversea clients work just as hard as we do.

 

I m just saying there is not much difference between Chinese artists and American artists. There are always good artists and bad artists, good management and bad management, things are the same everywhere. So if you meet 1 bad artists or company from China, please don't take all Chinese artists and companies as bad ones. That's not so fair.

[Billabong]

Jim,

 

Please don't think I consider you or any other country the enemy. I sympathize and understand, that you want to excel. I'm sure you have worked very hard to be where you are right now.

It's just frustrating for me to know that there is no way I or any other western freelancer can compete with your prices. I mean it is literally impossible, but that is not your fault.

So what do we do? I guess my only choice really is to accept it and just keep trying.

 

I have been thinking about this issue all day and it has been a really big weight on me. To be completely honest, I'm just scared. 3D is all I know. I didn't want to offend anyone here and if you were offended then I truly do apologize for anything I have said. Most of it was me just outlashing my frustration.

 

Good luck with your career and I do hope you are able to make the most of it.

 

-Brandon

[AJLynn]

I don't think - or I guess I should say I hope it's not true - that we have ill will towards the Chinese, Indians or any other individuals who through no fault of their own are living and working under different economic systems that make wages lower. I wish it weren't the case. I think the whole system is unsustainable, and I think the only workable solution is that the Chinese and Indian workers need to make more money. And don't work overtime unless you're getting paid for it - that goes for everybody.

[Ernest Burden III]

I m just saying there is not much difference between Chinese artists and American artists. There are always good artists and bad artists, good management and bad management, things are the same everywhere.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences from the Chinese market. I appreciate it.

 

you need to sell the idea that paying less for something can come with significant disadvantages.

 

Its never a good policy to elevate yourself by pushing down those around you. Besides, when you bring up the competition in a selling pitch, you may be planting a seed.

 

I don't think a US company is going to be able to compete with an overseas company on price for very long without loosing a lot of the talent or going under. You'd have to offer them something that the overseas firms can't, that could be quality, convenience, dependability or in other words really good customer service.

 

For those of you who have attended my DMVC talks, I hope you understood that I was not promoting a return to painting or pushing NPR styles. I was trying to tell you how to compete and win in the arch-vis market. The first talk was about understanding your subject and the second about ways to demonstrate that you understand the project and have tool to produce a superior result. Its not about digital and its often not really about cost, its about results that work.

 

If you think rendering is about price above all, you're sunk.

If you think rendering is about being digital, your sunk.

 

Rendering is about advancing your client's interests in a real estate/design project. The better you understand the client and the project the better renderer you will be. What is the most effective way to get you to the point where you can demonstrate your talents?

 

I started this thread because we are getting sidetracked in these increasingly divisive debates about how to deal with global threats/opportunities. Yes, it matters, but before we have one more hurtful argument over outsourcing, let's honestly look at whether its realistic to keep all phases of production 'local'. I strongly prefer it. If it's going to work, we have a good idea of how in this thread. If not--its not entirely the fault of the cheap labor in wherever. Its also our fault for not making the sacrifices necessary to put policy over profit, and let's not forget our clients. Where was their patriotism? Why were they so willing to see us lose our jobs just so they could make more money?

 

In the Great Architectural Crash of 1991 in New York, clients for whom I had busted my ass time and time again, often for reduced fees just because they asked, forgot I existed. The next time they had a project they were no more likely to call me than anyone. It was the NYSR that got me and others through. We kept in touch, discussed who had work and who didn't, and when you had a project and heard of another, it was time to suggest your colleague instead.

 

When you have the right attitude as an industry, your competition is not your enemy and may be your best friend at times.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Ernest Burden

[vpii@vpii.com]

I must admit I do not really frequent this forum to much. This topic seemed very interesting to me. My take of it is if anyone even cares, is or was nervousness like others here of the future. Lets face it is like a light switch went off over the last year. Something has changed just can not put a finger on it. Allot of you talk about low sub contract work from other " 3rd world countries" I for one have needed help now and again and find contract help but found in Europe it is more expensive then USA based freelance. Maybe you all have better contacts. I have family in Russia and I think most Americans think the world is mostly 3rd world. If they would just travel they would see other wise. Maybe even see things better are outside. Health care mentioned here big issue with me. It is like if your house was on fire they would ask do you have insurance? ability to pay they bill? then decide to come put out fire. Heath care is a right just like Police or Fireman. Nixon put this backward policy in to place but I guess I am getting off topic. Point is easy to blame outside contactors, for are down cycle. But the world playing field is leveling. All USA here do yourself a favor start marketing outside the USA. Just like stock savvy’s investing in global markets don't put all your eggs just in the local economy. My 2 cents

[EddieLeon]

Ernest,

 

You are like a dog chasing his tail. In a veiled way you are rejecting outsourcing by making the case that we should keep jobs in the US. On the other hand, you are saying that if it can be proven that jobs cannot be kept in the US then we should all outsource.

 

Get off the pulpit. When are you going to wake up and "smell the coffee"? There really is no debate or argument to be made. When you saw our operation in Miami wasn't it blindingly obvious that outsourcing works? Why start a debate that is only opening wounds and making everyone nervous? Furthermore, Jim Chen spilled his heart to you and all you can say is "I appreciate it". Do you really care?

 

One more thing I would like to point out is that our industry is "three dimensional." There are different types of 3d companies and different clients that they serve. The US economy is depressed and there is more and more competition every day from overseas. Yet, my company is having it's best year ever. Why? because we stay focused on perfecting our business and the things that we can control. We also embraced "outsourcing" almost "5" years ago!

 

My suggestion to all the freelancers and small companies that are freaking out here.

 

- Outsource your basic production to a reliable and trustworthy overseas partner. China is a great place to start.

 

- improve the quality of your work.

 

- Establish rock solid relationships with your best clients. Give them the white glove treatment.

 

- Create an awesome website. Pay for it if you have to.

 

- Google advertising works like a charm.

 

- Work on weekends and think about your business 24/7.

 

If you can't do all of this then I suggest you look for a job at a progressive architecture firm or a large 3d company like Neoscape. Good luck to all of you!

[gods418]

sound and looks like a NEW WORLD ORDER in CG industry.

 

whats next? MARINES going house to house comfiscating PC's & 3d Softwares with home license?

 

union of US, CANADA & MAXICO?

 

eoro style DOLLAR?

 

WW3

 

Lucky im working in CHINA.

[jkletzien]

I'm picturing a bunch of freelancers standing at a informally designated city corner with their laptops in hand waiting for Ernest to come by with his pickup truck and take them off to work to do some day labor.

 

I actually do love the idea to a certain extent, we can argue that we're all the same (and we are) but if my neighbor is struggling to make ends meet than I'd much prefer to hire him than someone a world away (as I assume people in China would prefer to hire someone in China, etc...).

 

Obviously if the price difference is enormous for the exact same product than anyone with any smarts would evaluate how much their own well being is affected by paying their neighbor his desired rate, and we all have to wrestle with that question ourselves. If you're busy charging your rates and can afford to hire someone domestically and still make enough money to keep you happy than human nature would tend to leave well enough alone, if you're hurting for work, or barely scraping by yourself well then it is probably time to look around as Eddie suggests.

 

Ernest, I don't think your firm can compete on price domestically, it could however compete in a niche market the same way that organic fair trade coffees do, having certain firms in the US pledge to only use domestic labor, and make that part of their marketing. It costs a little more but they can sleep easier at night knowing their helping their neighbor, etc.... That said I bet Dunkin Donuts outsells all the fair trade coffee in the world 15 to 1, so you ain't gonna get rich.

[gods418]

I'm picturing a bunch of freelancers standing at a informally designated city corner with their laptops in hand waiting for Ernest to come by with his pickup truck and take them off to work to do some day labor.

 

these are probably mexicans

[mayamax]

I am Indian...And proud to be..i really upset with this chat...I think you cant blame All Indians Or You cant Judge All Indians From sitting there...If you really Had a Bad Experience With Any Company From India...I Accept and Understand Your Frustrations and its Hurt Anybody So i apologize For that From All Indians. I Accept There Are Few Company's Or Freelancers Doing This Things... But I Would Like To Mention one Thing here..Just Came to my mind...

 

" The Few Company's And Freelancers Are Like the Black Dots On The Moon.. So Thats Why We Cant Blame Moon..because Its Always beautiful And Its remains Beautiful....the thousands of black dots like this comes...it never affect the moon..."

 

Its Just A Our view...And we Have To decide What We Have To See...

We can See The Moon Also And The Black Dots on moon Also...

So We have To Always Choose Moon Rather Than This Black Dots..

 

I hope you can understand..what I have To Say...

 

I Really Like The CG World As A Full World..I really Don't Like To see The CG World Is Divided In The Parts... I think This Part Is Not For us..its already done and still in process. and Our all Politics Party's Are Doing It very Well

 

So Rather Than Divide The World In too Parts Lets Connect Each other At Our Best And Grow our Industry As Much As We can... I truly Believe That Art Is Global And Its a Beautiful Thing In the World.. that can Hold World together....For long long Time...

Across the borders...

across the Limits ...

Across The Language's.....

Across The Nationality.....

Across The Religion....

Across The All parts The Always Try to Break A True Human Relationship In Too Parts...

 

I truly believe ... you will Surely Find All Talented And true Employees And colleagues In India As you have In The USA , Canada Or In The UK Or In the Rest of the World..

 

I think As " Mr.Ernest Burden " Said We are Not enemies..We are The Artist ... And Our job Is To just Find A Good art ... share your art .... Sell Your Art ... purchase other's Art....and everything that come's to under roof of art ..or related to art...

 

I Truly Believe the only One Person Can Hold A World Together ..... Not Army.....Not leaders...Not Politics paty's.....

 

Its A just a Artist ...And Artist...

 

So please Think On To Collect And Grow our Industry rather than Divide it in to Parts..." because Glass is Always Look Good When It A one piece...... if We Do 1000 Parts Of Glass Then We Loss its beauty ..And then its a very hard To Join Again every piece .. And Make him One piece.. "

 

If i Hurt some one ... i again apologies ..My Aim Is not To Hurt anyone..

 

thanks..

have A Nice Day..

[Ray]

. . . Heath care is a right . . .

 

Hmm, I don't recall that one being in the Bill of Rights.

[Hidden_Pixel]

There are so many discussions about outsourcing, it's refreshing to have one about so called insourcing. Eddie it's great you are successful by outsourcing to other countries but not everyone wants to work like that, some people would rather support their own country.

I am not saying any companies in particular do this but I am not comfortable with outsourcing to areas where it is possible to exploit cheap labor to maximize profits.

This will sound very cold Mayamax but you are talking about a utopia that will never exist. I may get some flak for this but I think if we are all honest we look out for our families first and foremost whatever country you are from. They are my first priority. I know it sounds very cold but there are enough stresses and strains on my doorstep without worrying about some pipe dream of us all being a giant global community that works in harmony.

Don't worry Mayamax there will always be an American willing to exploit cheap labor to line their pockets.

But you know maybe I am wrong, maybe just maybe the artists that are picked from around the world based purely on their artistic talent. There are very talented artists from India and China, I guess we will never know unless we ask someone who outsources.

Eddie do you hire purely on talent or is the monetary aspect a big factor, maybe it's a bit of both. Please be brutally honest.

[RyanSpaulding]

Jim,

I have been thinking about this issue all day and it has been a really big weight on me. To be completely honest, I'm just scared. 3D is all I know.

 

Agreed...but this is where you have to make YOUR move. I keep up on my flash web design, photoshop skills, and strive to learn new non-archviz programs. 3D jobs will always be around. A lot of them requre a lot of communication...arch viz with a set of DWGs, doesn't always.

 

Prepare for the fallout...keep your portfolio up to date, and don't stay content.

[Ernest Burden III]

Ernest...Get off the pulpit.

 

Good morning.

 

In a veiled way you are rejecting outsourcing by making the case that we should keep jobs in the US. On the other hand, you are saying that if it can be proven that jobs cannot be kept in the US then we should all outsource.

 

My goal is not to push one solution or another on anyone, nor to 'open wounds'. As I stated right from the start, I would like us to move beyond the emotional arguments and take an honest look at where we are as arch-vis providers in the major-market countries with respect to outsourcing. Is it time to concede that it is no longer practical to do most modeling and scene setup in our own countries? If no, how do we re-tool to make in-sourcing work, and if it is--and here's the take-away--let's stop attacking our counterparts in other markets.

 

I was not trying to be 'veiled', but maybe I was too subtle. So to my fellow Americans who are complaining about outsourcing and attacking the character of entire nations, its put up or shut up time.

 

I was hoping not to say it like that, but I have failed to convey the message effectively judging from some of these responses.

 

Jim Chen spilled his heart to you and all you can say is "I appreciate it". Do you really care?

 

That's a rather cheap shot. I believe he spilled his heart because he read my posts and saw that I do, but for the record, yes, I care about how people in our industry treat eachother.

 

my company is having it's best year ever. Why? because we stay focused on perfecting our business and the things that we can control!

 

Why? Because your company is headed by people with an especially good business sense. There are a lot of people in architecture and rendering who are good at producing what they love, but clueless about running a business. I wasn't thinking about Spine3D in the advice I gave a few posts back because you have already got things in place with priority on customer attention and responsiveness. You have arranged the process to serve the top business goals rather than trying to fit a business around doing what you love to do.

 

I'm picturing a bunch of freelancers standing at a informally designated city corner with their laptops in hand waiting for Ernest to come by with his pickup truck and take them off to work to do some day labor.

 

That's not far from the truth, unfortunately. If you choose to hire domestic help on a project-by-project basis, it's going to be one freelancer at a time. My problem as a business right now is that I'm just one guy. When I add someone to help, we become two. Still not where I should be to compete on capacity and speed. This isn't to say the people available in the US aren't great. They are.

 

For example, I've worked recently with Brandon, who has posted in this thread. He is a very skilled modeler and a very hard worker with a great attitude and is extremely responsive to what is needed for the project.

 

But if I need ten Brandons at once, I can't get that without running myself silly. So I suggested a way that could--maybe--work.

 

Ernest, I don't think your firm can compete on price domestically, it could however compete in a niche market the same way that organic fair trade coffees do.

 

I'm not sure if you mean Acme Digital or this suggestion of a freelancer's collaborative which I take no ownership of. If my studio, well, I'm doing OK so far on price though I have seen a bit more pressure from clients to lower the cost this year. That is part of what is driving my interest in how to farm out parts of production. I'm not sure where its going for me yet, and that's why its useful to discuss these things with all of you. I did set out in digital to provide a niche product as a strategy to compete against the bigger players like you, Eddie and Nils (among many others). It has worked beyond my expectations and leaves me to figure out how to run a business with a good product but a costly process.

 

I hope all this helps.

[Billabong]

Agreed...but this is where you have to make YOUR move. I keep up on my flash web design, photoshop skills, and strive to learn new non-archviz programs. 3D jobs will always be around. A lot of them requre a lot of communication...arch viz with a set of DWGs, doesn't always.

 

Prepare for the fallout...keep your portfolio up to date, and don't stay content.

 

Yeah,which is why I'm glad that I do more technical modeling than anything else, but who knows how long before that goes the same route

 

hhhmm, I wonder if VFX gets outsourced? j/k

 

For example, I've worked recently with Brandon, who has posted in this thread. He is a very skilled modeler and a very hard worker with a great attitude and is extremely responsive to what is needed for the project.

 

But if I need ten Brandons at once, I can't get that without running myself silly. So I suggested a way that could--maybe--work.

 

Thanks for the compliment Ernest