Sawyer Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Maybe we should just outsource our business management to other people and do all the work ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 Maybe we should just outsource our business management to other people and do all the work ourselves. That's called being an employee. It has merits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vizwhiz Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 we in The US have ONE major Advantage, US = Imperialists, jk we use & know & understand The IMPERIAL measuring system i dont Think any other country (is foolish enough To) uses Imperial ** viva Lost Wages what happens in Lost Wages stays in Lost Wages ** call me i am presently looking for work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 One does exist and is starting to grow... but anything like this takes a mindset way different than this discussion "overall" to be successful This is great to know. I think the majority of us have the correct mindset for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I suggest that anyone considering “outsourcing” their work to the Far East visit the company that they want to do business with. I’ve just returned from a trip to China, and employee work conditions can vary from very good, to extremely poor, and government regulation of the workplace seems non existent. You could be supporting a sweatshop…or worse. Local work seems to be working for me, but extending local include the entire U.S. may be in the near future. My biggest headache occurs when most of my customers have projects on hold, then the projects all get hot…at the same time…. A database of good, reliable, suppliers that have a common knowledge of architectural and artistic terms, language, and similar time zones would be invaluable. D.B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blowback Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 ..... I truly believe ... you will Surely Find All Talented And true Employees And colleagues In India As you have In The USA , Canada Or In The UK Or In the Rest of the World.. I think As " Mr.Ernest Burden " Said We are Not enemies..We are The Artist ... And Our job Is To just Find A Good art ... share your art .... Sell Your Art ... purchase other's Art....and everything that come's to under roof of art ..or related to art... well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayamax Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 well said Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litleboy Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 all these is called globalization and there is no way back, get prepared. it happens at all levels, between companies in small towns and between countries.. I have lost jobs to people who do 3d as a hobby, how can you compete whit that? the same way you will have to compete with the rest of the world. been professional and prepare for the future. I'm from Mexico, in the 90s thousands of companies shut down because the Us companies where introduced (NAFTA). the ones that survived where the ones who where prepare for it. this is not a new issue in the world. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted June 7, 2008 Author Share Posted June 7, 2008 Here's a thought. And it probably doesn't enter into anyone's thinking because it's too 'big picture'. When a certain traditionally-defined market--the United States for me--reaches a point where the foundational skills of a line-of-work are no longer being practiced in that market, where do tomorrow's professionals come from? I was thinking about some of the people in the US who have helped me with projects over the years. Some are fully trained renderers who simply needed to keep earning in a dry spell and took on modeling and set-up work to keep active or help a friend in a pinch. But most have been people who are working up the ladder as they learn the complete skillset needed to be a profesional renderer. In other words, they aren't there yet, but in time will be because they are working with experienced 'masters' of their trade and learning as they earn at the level of their skills at that time in their development. What happens when we largely eliminate the 'apprentice' phase of building a professional renderer? It's like a society that stops having children. Its OK for a while, but the future is another thing. Maybe rendering as we know it is on its way out, in which case why make people learn skills they won't be able to use much later. If I knew what the future holds for our industry I could suggest a course, but I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Ernest, extending from your post.... A place (virtual & Physcial) where you can work with other like minded artists, learn a common language, time system and the tools to do work, from peers and masters, such as yourself. With portion of it being safe to experiment-expand without the $$$ attachements and legalities of doing the work in the day to day paying world. In that portion/partition having collaborative team like groups that learn to work together, strengthen and validate thier skills to each other. Explore new tech, techniques and just have fun for the joy of doing it... if you have anything left after work. This would allow the expreienced to give back, the new to expand and everybody (in theory) to grow and potentionally grow faster than a single indivual plowing through all the possibilites. A sand box ( stolen phrase) where you play, learn, find others that you play well with ...... A sand box nested inside of a greater CG sandbox where you can learn to play with a broad range of tools and techniques related to VFX, cinema, drawing, photography..which all can just be fun and or advance-0eepen a current skill set. First thoughts that popped into mind after reading your post Cheers Wax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Alexander Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 from previous ... most important is being able to pre-empt shifts in tech and prepare for shifts in markets. AN ArchViz Speciality with an eye toward the future other areas where ones desires and skills may grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 (edited) Not meaning any disrespect , but making work the sole purpose of living seems a shallow and fairly pointless existance (IMHO). For me, work is a means to care for my family so I can enjoy spending time with them, making work a 24/7 occupation is a sure way to kill that! (Sorry for adding more off topic chatter, just feel to strongly on this one). Regards Bri easy to say that when your making enough money, I basically think about the future of my career all the time, because it effects my family as well, and lets face it, we all wanna make it in this business I pretty much work 15 to 16 hrs a day, 7 days a week right now, taking any job that I know i can do I should add that I didn't mean that to sound rude if it did, but managing your money freelancing isn't an easy thing, I would love a studio job, but to up and move my family somewhere, the money would have to be decent enough for us not to live in the slums. Sorry for the randomness Edited June 7, 2008 by Billabong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Fair enough Brian, Thanks for clarifying. Yeah it would take a very trustworthy, business smart person to oversee this. Personally I know of no one that isn't already climbing the walls from being to busy. Hopefully someone will offer themselves,but still only a couple of guys really still have really said they would be into this and I think its going to take more than just handful for this to start working. Maybe we should think about posting this on other sites as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 I left the discussion as I said I would because I was derailing it with comments. I responded to individuals via PM. To make up for my negative impact, I would offer up to people who are REALLY interested the use of a site and domain that I had intended to use for a job board. I have the mods for classifieds and for an integrated gallery that I can install (when I had to move servers the host accidently hosed the old server and lost the set up, so I just installed the basic theme and CMS I originally had set up for the project and haven't re-installed the mods I had for it, on shared hosting) I can easily add the mods and set up admin rights for a serious and responsible person. I will not volunteer to run the business end of it, I am just offering to provide the server space and a website and help serious indviduals as best I can and help promote it and if it doesn't work and isn't feasible on US soils then only some time and energy is wasted. I just think arguing and debating doesn't answer the question Ernest originally asked, actually experimenting with trying it out would answer the question. So if anyone seriously wants to try and promote a loose organization of united artist, I will provide the banner to rally under and the basic infrastructure. Serious individuals can contact me and if any individuals do I wil put them in contact with one another and they can develop a game plan, I don't want to get in the middle of it, I just want to provide the opportunity for it to be tested and hopefully successful and if it proceeds in a professional perhaps our studio like Ernest's can contract out your services. So here is a chance for us to stop talking and start walking! If you have trouble contacting me for some reason just use the contact form at 3dallusions.com or the contact at the bottom of our forums, it goes to me. Please only self motivated individuals that are interested in trying to create a syndicate of US artist for contracted in-sourcing, responsibility would be delegated out to those who seem appropriate for the task, I am not looking to run the show and take it on, just provide and infrastructure to support American artist. Here is the site in it's RAW form, I have gallery, classifieds, and project collaboration that can be added, content would be the responsibility of responsible interested parties. Sorry if have wasted peoples time if this is not of interest to anyone, I just thought the discussion should go somewhere of end. http://www.digitalsweatshop.net/ Best regards everyone and sorry I was in trouble making, instigative mood the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 This is fantastic, Russell, let me know if you would like some cash flow sent your way, I would happy to maybe help a little with your web costs. Sending you a pm right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 (edited) Brandon, When I moved my main site to new high-end server to support another very big endeavor soon to be announced, I moved some small projects like this and my mothers blog (Ok let the ribbing begin! LOL) to a shared plan that actually has lots of resources, and because I paid for two years in advance, it was only like $5.95 a month, so there is no real financial hardship on my part, hence I can easily support this for people to try and make a go of it. Of course it is very generous of you to offer. The one thing I can't donate is a lot of time, I can set things up and let interested individuals run with it. Rent is all paid for, domain is good until 2012 sometime, basically I am providing a store front for US artist to see if they can open up shop and make a go at it. So just think of it as a cheap way to investigate the scenario, I will help get it going, but have no interest in being the store manager! LOL Like I told Brandon in his email after contacting me I will create a mailing list and respond to everyone that displays interest and then the group can just reply all in their discussions and work things out, think of me as a facilitator with limited time but plenty of resources. Edited June 7, 2008 by Russell L. Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Sounds great, Thanks Russell, Now all we need is a businessman/woman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Yes a matrix of software and skills is a good idea, I personally haven't put a lot of thought into it since I don't plan on being involved on that level, just made the offer and figured if it was meant to be it would work itself out. But yes it seems logical that everyones areas of experience and expertise would be documented so that when jobs came along people could be matched up appropriately. Lets just say that once people speak up and the brain storming is done we can work out the infrastructure for it. As for those across the pond, nothing personal on my side, the excercise though is for localised sourcing. I actually don't know that it couldn't be by continent and say US and Canada, but that is still outsourcing I guess, if you cross a border. I will let the syndicate decide that kind of stuff, I am just a faciltator. I just wanted to respond the post since ideas like skill matrix should probably be thought of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Here's a thought. And it probably doesn't enter into anyone's thinking because it's too 'big picture'. EB...it's great that you can do such "big picture" thinking for us. It's kinda like that movie "Children of Men". A future without babies...But, instead you are suggesting an America without freelance renderers. What are we to do? Goodness gracious!! Joking aside, the sky is not falling and we will all be ok. First of all, many artists (including myself) don't apprentice. They are self-taught. Second, I believe industries evolve and I believe in survival of the fittest. New jobs will be created. In the case of the US the trend will be that the new roles will be in management (pays more anyway). If there is less demand for domestic renderers, then the good ones will remain and the not so good ones will learn new skills in parallel industries (Art, Entertainment, new Media, etc). EB, didn't you dream of being a Matte Painter once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Not meaning any disrespect , but making work the sole purpose of living seems a shallow and fairly pointless existance (IMHO). For me, work is a means to care for my family so I can enjoy spending time with them, making work a 24/7 occupation is a sure way to kill that! (Sorry for adding more off topic chatter, just feel to strongly on this one). Regards Bri I was just exaggerating to make a point. I should have taken 5 hours off for sleep and make it 19/7 Just kidding... I really just meant that we need to "think" and not just do. I agree that it's not healthy to work too many hours. Especially if you have a wife and kids (I have 2 girls and a baby boy). There is nothing more sad than missing your child's school event, or coming home late, missing dinner, and seeing your kids already asleep in bed, or going on too many business trips (DMVC not included). I must admit that I do push the limit a little too often. But, not too much. It's also a great feeling when you can afford nice long vacations with family and not have any credit card debt to worry about (been there done that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 As for those across the pond, nothing personal on my side, the excercise though is for localised sourcing. I actually don't know that it couldn't be by continent and say US and Canada, but that is still outsourcing I guess, if you cross a border. I will let the syndicate decide that kind of stuff, I am just a faciltator. I just wanted to respond the post since ideas like skill matrix should probably be thought of. I don't mean to burst bubbles, but you guys are off to a bad start. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good idea and it has a lot of merit. But, when you start isolating people it's going to be a problem. That's why for this to work it cannot be geographically based. Keep in mind, CGArchitect is a Canadian website. What if one day Jeff said that Americans were not welcomed on this site? How would you feel? Don't take this issue so lightly. If you were to change your minds and include all English speaking countries you would still have issues. There are a lot of fluent English speakers all over the world. Also, why would you ever want to shrink your market place? You don't want to be the small fish in the small pond. If there is a paradigm shift in the market one day you will be royally scr@w@d... By the way, the title on your website is "Digital Sweatshop: Global Outsourcing for the Digital Age". Since when does the universe revolve around the US? Maybe we should go back to our roots and call it "Confederate Outsourcing"!!! Oh, and you have to be White. No blacks or Latinos allowed. Do you guys get my point? We are in the 21st Century!!! The age of The Google and The Internets... I highly recommend you open up the idea. Otherwise, people won't participate and the whole thing will just flop. There are some really good ideas here. Let's take things a step at a time and not jump the gun. I recommend we create an outline of what the website should do. We should also research other websites that already offer the same platform. There are plenty to look at (eLance, oDesk, Guru, etc). Once we have a basic understanding of what the site will be, then we can divide the work and centralize it with a neutral party (TBD). Sorry to throw the bucket of cold water. It takes more energy to beat around the bush and be polite. If you guys are too delicate for my reality check I understand. If not, then lets make something happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billabong Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Eddie, I think I have already stated that we should do this globally, but we need to make all artists involved all agree on one price. and the way we could make sure that it sticks is to have someway the money is transferred through the business, or make it known somehow, what the base price is for all artists so nobody decides to get greedy Of course the business person would get a small percantage of each job that comes in. I am not a business person, I'm just throwing ideas, someone call me stupid or tell me to shutup, if this just sounds crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 First off, I am not going to make the decisions on this, I offered a site I set up long ago as a job board and then when Jeff released his, so I did not continue with it. This is old existing site that I said we could revamp for whatever infrastructure needed for whatever business structure was developed. So let's not start critiquing a gift awaiting customization. However, this thread is all about in-sourceing for the US, please do not start reverse discrimination against people because they are Americans. If someone wants to try and organize a US insourcing business structure, don't over-react, your are free to use the model for whatever country, if it was done (actually is?) in another country I don't think we would be hearing outcries. Americans can't join together and try to in-source for their own country but others in other countries can join together and try to out-source to the work in the US, seems like a double standard. Let me re-itterate I have my own studio, this isn't for me I am swamped as it is, this is for the concept of this thread, but I will speak up and say no one should try to bully or throw cold water on the idea because it doesn't involve them. You are free to do your own and apply all your great and superior ideas to your own endeavor. It doesn't mean the final structure won't be GLOBAL, I am just saying this thread is about in-sourcing, don't derail the thread once again, it is finally focusing on what it was started for. I hope it is anyway, Ernest I hope I brought it back on track. Anyway people know that they are to contact me, I think I will leave the thread alone and let happen whatever will happen Anyway it is up to any artist that make a go at it, it might not interest enough people, but I put it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 ...we need to make all artists involved all agree on one price. and the way we could make sure that it sticks is to have someway the money is transferred through the business, or make it known somehow, what the base price is for all artists so nobody decides to get greedy The pricing will need to consider various factors. Projects have different levels of difficulty. Renderings that are rushed should cost more. Some clients don't want perfect photo-real renderings. Others nit-pick about every little detail and expect no change orders but are willing to pay a higher price for the white glove treatment, etc. You will also need to consider inflation and how global monetary systems are always fluctuating against each other. Payments can just be made through the website using Paypal or an internal escrow system. The business can then take a 5% - 10% cut on the transaction. I was actually thinking artists or teams of artists would compete with each other in a type of bid system. It would be more of a free market with no fixed pricing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 Just to take the counter argument here: Can you explain why such a business would need to be open to people outside the US? Anybody wanting to outsource modeling work to people outside the US has more options than they know what to do with. What Ernest says is an interesting point: sometimes you want to hire somebody within the US and it's not as easy. I'd certainly hire Americans whenever possible - no offense intended to people outside the US, but it really is easier to work with people in the same country. Hell, I'd work only with consultants who work within 5 minutes of a Boston subway stop if I could. Just because a market is open does not mean every organization needs to be open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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