Let's in-source our projects!!!

[AJLynn]

I was actually thinking artists or teams of artists would compete with each other in a type of bid system. It would be more of a free market with no fixed pricing.

 

Great idea, if what you're looking for is, as somebody who wants to shop out work, the lowest price. But it sounds like you already get the lowest price in your business. The idea here is for people who specifically want to find people in this country to do projects.

[Billabong]

OK then it's settled, we stay in the U.S

 

Next problem:

 

We need a mod./business person.

 

Also, if anyone wants to split the cost with me, I'll pay half to get the website designed/coded and such

[EddieLeon]

First off, I am not going to make the decisions on this, I offered a site I set up long ago as a job board and then when Jeff released his, so I did not continue with it. This is old existing site that I said we could revamp for whatever infrastructure needed for whatever business structure was developed. So let's not start critiquing a gift awaiting customization.

 

Ok. The In-sources win. This will be my last post on this thread.

 

Let me just point out one more thing. You are offering your domain and webserver so that others here can essentially build and test your website for free. If the site is successful, what are you promising for the volunteers? If it ain't on paper it don't mean squat. Good luck!

[TheAllusionisst]

First off I offered to add the items that aren't already on a built site, they would add content to suit their needs, I run multiple sites built on Joomla, I have no need for anyone to test anything. What good does it do me to have someone add content and an identity of which I wouldn't use, I have my own business structure ( http://www.3dallusions.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=74 ) and my own online empire.

 

I don't see what I gain from it and haven't put much thought into, it, I don't see the site getting enough traffic for banners to pay off, maybe link to 3dallusions and get some traffic, but still not enough for the effort and exposure on my part. If someone wants to build a name for themselves and put forth all the effort so that they own the domain and responsibility they can go write ahead, I just looked at this as a way to support the concept and US artist, if nobody takes me up on this fine, I was guilty of derailing it, I just thought I would try to bring it on-track again.

 

I would imagine following through with my original "GLOBAL" outsourcing concept would have much more financial incentive. If this current excercise was actually successful we would have to consider something then if people didn't want to operate with me as facilitator, but I haven't asked for any cut of the pie or ownership of the endeavor, all I could see from thinking aoubt it while typing this up is that the domain name may go up in value or something from activity, that is about all I could see getting out of this besided good old fashion positive Kharma.

 

It was good of you to ask the question and look out for others, I am actually Satan and entering into the arrangement intitles me to your soul, now you have gone and ruined it for me!

[litleboy]

I understand the willing to help local market and more now with this economic situation, but a business its a business and may be the numbers, market study or stuff like that will show that is not a good business or ass good if you dont consider outsourcing. , probably it will have to be more like a union, organization, non profit or what ever name, it's objective will be to help local artist, wich I thing will open door to a bunch of grants, and corporation help etc etc.

[Jeff Mottle]

I've been following this and the other closely related thread with interest. A lot of strong opinions and fear driving a lot of the discussions.

 

I've spoken to Eddie a number of times about the elance type site he mentions and I think it would be quite successful. I however don't think it should exist as an isolationist entity, nor do I think that particular idea should employ a fixed pricing model, in the way that is being discussed. With the latter you're fighting the fundamental way our economy works. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but man, I think you could spend your energies a lot more efficiently.

 

The idea of a site like this would be to implement a communication platform for artists to team together on projects, bid on projects, to facilitate payment and track qualifications and ratings of past projects/jobs in a per artist basis.

 

I tend to agree with Eddie when he says that the market is large and diverse enough to allow someone who works for $10/hour to work along side someone who charges $40+/hr. If you look at or have used platforms like Elance (I have done both), you will see that both the high end and low end of the market still get jobs. Elance in particular even records the total revenue of each person/company so you can see that this is true. Yes the system does tend to favor the lowest bid, but the reality is that not everyone selects a freelancer or company based on the lowest bid. Neoscape, Spine, dbox, etc are certainly not cheap and yet they are consistently busy.

 

The fact is there are companies whose only criteria is price. No matter what systems you put in place, how isolationist you become, this will never change. This is capitalism and is what drives the North American economy. If you want to be successful, you need to focus on quality, product offering and efficiency. If you are loosing all of your work to the lowest bid it's because you are not offering your clients something that gives them reason to think you are any different than the guy overseas charging $10/hour.

 

Globalization is a fact of life for the foreseeable future. I think it would be a lot easier to focus your energies on how to be more competitive (and I don't necessarily mean on price) than to look at ways to change the way the world economy works. By the time you figure that out, you'd be out of business.

 

The benefit that a system like Elance etc can offer both low and high end artists is the mechanism to showcase a trackrecord of quality and highly rated work and get your name in front of clients you might otherwise not have had a chance to secure.

 

Keep in mind your clients in a system like this are not just architects looking for a cheap freelancer, but also your peers. I know for a fact you will find a lot of companies are not going to be shopping for the cheapest price, but rather the company or person they can trust to get the job done at a quality their own clients expect.

[Ernest Burden III]

to make it work requires business

skills, someone has to take the helm business wise!

 

Now all we need is a businessman/woman

 

I know of someone with the indusrty experience and business savvy to run something like you're discussing profitably. I doubt that person would want to do it, but if not, others probably could. Who?

 

I've been following this and the other closely related thread with interest.

 

But I doubt Jeff would want to take on another project.

 

EB...it's great that you can do such "big picture" thinking for us. It's kinda like that movie "Children of Men". A future without babies...But, instead you are suggesting an America without freelance renderers. What are we to do? Goodness gracious!!

 

Well it bothers me to be contributing to the end of a profession in my country. It may be inevitable, and it may be not even a correct prediction. I'm just questioning what role we are playing in the sustainability of the business we pass on to the next next generation of artists.

 

"Children of Men", yeah I thought of that when I wrote that, but I was really thinking a little earlier, to the film adaptation of Ray Bradbury's 'Illustrated Man' (remember-I'm old-school) where a group comes to the realization that the world will end in a horrible, painful way the next morning so they decide to spare their children and smother them in their sleep. The next morning these people, seeing what they have done, realize that the prediction was in fact, true.

 

The story as written in the book is rather different, and gives us another way to look at the situation:

 

"The Last Night of the World" — In this story, the entire planet awakens to the knowledge that the world is going to end that very evening. Nonetheless, they go through their normal routines of going to work, eating, brushing their teeth, and falling asleep, knowing and accepting the fact that they will not wake up. This is in strong contrast to the looting and riots typically expected in this situation.

 

EB, didn't you dream of being a Matte Painter once?

 

No, never. I also never wanted to be an architectural renderer because I could see what that life was like by looking at my own father.

 

I did want to be a sci-fi illustrator and get into film-making so I could create alien cities and landscapes for the masses . But I learned rendering by being a master's apprentice (there's no such thing as self-taught unless you grew up alone on a desert island) and it was the best way to make a living when I got off to a slow start in sci-fi work. Everything I know about the business of rendering I learned from my former boss Brian Burr and my colleagues in the field, especially through the connections of NYSR.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Ernest Burden

[AJLynn]

...But I learned rendering by being a master's apprentice (there's no such thing as self-taught unless you grew up alone on a desert island)...

 

Funny how that works - I learned almost everything I know about it that wasn't taught in school from this forum. (More props to Jeff and the gang.)

[Ernest Burden III]

Funny how that works - I learned almost everything I know about it that wasn't taught in school from this forum. (More props to Jeff and the gang.)

 

You guys too, I include you all in the 'colleagues' category. The local NYC group pre-dates the web so they were the first influence. The point remains--you learn by working with, observing and interacting with your fellows-in-field. That can easily be an international thing like it is here, but things that are more particular to one sub-market are best picked up from within that group.

[EddieLeon]

I did want to be a sci-fi illustrator and get into film-making so I could create alien cities and landscapes for the masses . But I learned rendering by being a master's apprentice (there's no such thing as self-taught unless you grew up alone on a desert island) and it was the best way to make a living when I got off to a slow start in sci-fi work. Everything I know about the business of rendering I learned from my former boss Brian Burr and my colleagues in the field, especially through the connections of NYSR.

 

Ok...So you settled? I wanted to be an architect, but I enjoyed 3d a whole lot more so I changed my career path. I didn't get into 3d for the money. It was my primary passion.

 

Regarding apprentice, your point was that there may come a time when the work will dry up and we shouldn't teach an apprentice (no babies). My point is that an "apprentice" is an old world concept and no one needs a "master" to learn 3d. How many artists here learned like you did?

 

Regarding "self-taught", I obviously learned a few things from my friends. But, I didn't need any formal training to do 3d. And that's part of the "problem" with our industry. There are very low barriers to entry. Any kid in any corner of the world can get a laptop with an internet connection, get a basic 3d program and compete head on with us. If that kid lives in a poor country and his/her only hope to get ahead in life is to do 3d then God bless him because that brings a little bit more hope and equality to our messed up world!

 

By the way, isn't "sci-fi illustrator" and "matte painter" almost the same thing? Maybe I'm just confused with your Old World concepts...

[EddieLeon]

I have my own business structure ( http://www.3dallusions.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=74 ) and my own online empire.

 

I read your article. It was pretty funny. I particularly laughed at this line of thinking:

 

"Architects tend to be spineless in regards to client relationships and even worse at business matters. They have dwindled and squandered their share of control and profit by infighting, under bidding and general ‘Machiavellian’ practices. Long gone are the days of the ‘Master Builder’ and the real art of architecture, bureaucracy now rules the day."

 

I'm curious. What percentage of your clients are architects? Come to think of it, I hear that Seattle is still a pretty hot market (like a Starbucks Latte). I'm gonna have my sales team zero in on it this week.

I'm really not kidding....

 

It was good of you to ask the question and look out for others, I am actually Satan and entering into the arrangement intitles me to your soul, now you have gone and ruined it for me!

 

You might not be kidding either

[Ernest Burden III]

Ok...So you settled?...I didn't get into 3d for the money. It was my primary passion.

 

Are you saying I don't love 3D either? Settled--more like shifted with the available work, found a way I hadn't expected to go down. I have also always been about 3D. I'm the son of an architect and a sculptor, I can't help it. It's just that my interest in architecture was more directed at other planets.

 

I guess matte painting could be done in a 3D-minded way, but it never appealed to me vs. all things 3D--funny, since both result in a 2D result.

 

Regarding apprentice, your point was that there may come a time when the work will dry up and we shouldn't teach an apprentice (no babies). My point is that an "apprentice" is an old world concept and no one needs a "master" to learn 3d. How many artists here learned like you did?

 

Actually my point was that if you stop growing the entry-level skills within a market you will later have no skilled professionals and that line of work ceases to be practiced in that market. Its a cautionary tale, not a plan.

 

The practice of rendering is changing a lot right now and I've been here watching it evolve for 25 years. Where it will go that much into the careers of our new people I can't say. But if young people in rendering in the major markets don't get the chance to learn the foundational skills, how will they be in a position to work beyond that level and indeed lead the future?

 

Big questions, no obvious answers.

[TheAllusionisst]

I read your article. It was pretty funny. I particularly laughed at this line of thinking:

 

"Architects tend to be spineless in regards to client relationships and even worse at business matters. They have dwindled and squandered their share of control and profit by infighting, under bidding and general ‘Machiavellian’ practices. Long gone are the days of the ‘Master Builder’ and the real art of architecture, bureaucracy now rules the day."

 

I'm curious. What percentage of your clients are architects? Come to think of it, I hear that Seattle is still a pretty hot market (like a Starbucks Latte). I'm gonna have my sales team zero in on it this week.

I'm really not kidding....

 

 

 

You might not be kidding either

 

You may laugh but the assessment of architects is pretty much spot on in most cases (IMHO), then again I worked in the field for a long time and left to pursue the current endeavors because of the lack of backbone and business acumen in the field. That isn't a negative on the character of architects, just the poor condition they have let the profession drop to and the lack of natural business savvy, they are after all for the most part, artist at heart.

 

Percentage wise right now it a lot of architects teamed with developers and then the single architect to developer ratio is even so over all it is about 50/50.

 

Large projects for us tend to be located elsewhere like Utah and Texas for example. That doesn't mean there aren't ones here as well. Personally I think it is funny how a lot of artist are bad at advertising and working their own market. We get people in other markets saying there is nobody in their area that does this kind of stuff. Of course I know that isn't true, but I am not going to tell them! LOL

 

Now excuse me, I have to go over see some 'Virgin Sacrafices'

[Ernest Burden III]

the lack of backbone and business acumen in the field. That isn't a negative on the character of architects, just the poor condition they have let the profession drop to and the lack of natural business savvy, they are after all for the most part, artist at heart.

 

That was what I meant earlier about the difficulties of trying to wrap a business around doing something you love. It's hard to put aside the part that got you into it in the first place to spend increasing amounts of time running a business, but it's really necessary, especially if you want to grow or make good money. Renderers are often no better than what you say about architects at this for the same reasons.

[Devin Johnston]

I

I did want to be a sci-fi illustrator and get into film-making so I could create alien cities and landscapes for the masses .

It's so funny you said that because I got into 3D out of my love for sci-fi and model making. I'd spend hours building Star Wars and Star Trek ships and once I found out that I could do it in the computer it really made me think about doing it as a career. I decided architecture was the direction for me but it all really started with sci-fi.

[TheAllusionisst]

That was what I meant earlier about the difficulties of trying to wrap a business around doing something you love. It's hard to put aside the part that got you into it in the first place to spend increasing amounts of time running a business, but it's really necessary, especially if you want to grow or make good money. Renderers are often no better than what you say about architects at this for the same reasons.

 

You are very right and I have been lucky in my re-incarnated life (leaving architecture and pursuing archvis), that I had myself set up to live modestly and money last a while to pursue what wanted to do. So I took the attitude that I wasn't going to fall into that trap and made my mind up to operate somewhere between an architect and a lawyer in a way that I hopefully didn't suffer for my art while selling my soul....... and hopefully gained the positive from the combination of the two, to make an honorable living.

 

So this time around I had some guts and attitude (Had my own design service years ago and have done archvis on the side for years and fell into the terrible description I outlined and that gives people a chuckle) and decided to do it as professional and impersonal as possible. The impersonal is that things are business and you separate them from your relationship with the client, additional services arise, you provide them with the request and explanation right away instead of waiting till the end and trying to justify it because you didn't want to deal with the confrontation during the job. IT IS JUST BUSINESS, most clients understand and don't think anything about it if it is justified.

 

The forms and agreements are professional and don't give away the farm. In fact for the current Service agreement I started out with the one Brian provided for 'Insider' and added and modified based on my years of experience in the field of architecture. Making it more strict and defined for the client and a bit loser on us. Nobody has edited it or requested modifications so far. It appears that if you act professional, set aside personal feelings but act with integrity, that you save your self a lot of emotional wear and tear, it is all in the contract in black and white all parties understand or if they don't you point it out in the CONTRACT and things are all good for the most part (So far, knock on wood!).

 

So we issue preliminaries with transparent repeating watermarks and they get the version with only our logo and artist copyright Plus name when we receive the final check (require 25% deposit at beginning).

 

With it all set up this way and with the fact that we are offering quality and service and not the most 'economical' solution, we play a strong hand in negotiating. Clients will say we have another studio that will do it in 10 business days or for a thousand dollars less and I say to them "That sounds like a great deal, if you are certain that you will be comfortable with the product they provide, I would definitely use them, this is business after all, you need to do what is best for you and your interest". Funny, it seems like people have to wait around an hour to call you back after that speach, I am pretty sure they make their mind up within 15 minutes of the end of the meeting/phone conference/phone call, but they usually wait just around an hour to call to tell me we got the job.

 

None of this may seem to matter if you can't pay the bills and have hungry kids to feed and maybe it doesn't, I am just pointing out that I use to operate business like I had the 'backbone of a chocolate eclaire" and believe me operating at a very professional and impersonal manner is much easier. Once again impersonal is how I take and handle the business portion of the relationship, I still joke with the client and may even exchange a humorous email or two with them over time, but I try to separate business so that I don't get emotionally involved. So it would appear to me that even the little guys can behave like the big boys on the professional level, our suit might just cost less Have a backbone is what I learned and I ran with it.

 

Always remember to read my signature if you don't agree with me

Edited June 9, 2008 by Russell L. Thomas

[Scott Erstad]

Well said Allusionist, I could not agree more. this is the trouble with most artists who are trying to play business person, sales person, manager, on and on. It tends to get all he said/she said. Contracts, respect and hard work get you a whole long way out there.

 

I have been following this thread and it is good to see some constructive dialog coming from it. I think the premise of the original post has tremendous merits. It is unfortunate it was lost in the "debate".

 

Regards,

Edited June 9, 2008 by scotty
clarity

[EddieLeon]

I guess matte painting could be done in a 3D-minded way, but it never appealed to me vs. all things 3D--funny, since both result in a 2D result.

 

Yes. Matte paintings are typically done in 3D nowadays. All Sci-Fi movies use them. 3D is the base and the artist stylizes over it. It's kinda like what you do with your NPR. What a coincidence!

 

Big questions, no obvious answers.

 

Yes. You're good with questions...

[EddieLeon]

Always remember to read my signature if you don't agree with me

 

The Opinions Expressed Here Do Not Necessarily Reflect Those of a Rational Mind.

3DAllusions Studio

 

Ok, but then maybe you should just keep your irrational thoughts to yourself. You shouldn't create excuses for what you say.

[EddieLeon]

I have been following this thread and it is good to see some merits coming from it. I think the original premise of the post has tremendous merits. It is unfortunate it was lost in the "debate".

 

I agree with this point and it is unfortunate.

[TheAllusionisst]

Well said Allusionist, I could not agree more. this is the trouble with most artists who are trying to play business person, sales person, manager, on and on. It tends to get all he said/she said. Contracts, respect and hard work get you a whole long way out there.

 

I have been following this thread and it is good to see some merits coming from it. I think the original premise of the post has tremendous merits. It is unfortunate it was lost in the "debate".

 

Regards,

 

Thanks Scotty, I was hoping I could help Ernest get it back online, looks like it ain't gonna happen Love the traditional mediums at your site.

 

As for the artistic first endeavors. I was going to be an artist but as I grew up I realized I would probably be a starving artist since my dad was a musician and we grew up dirt poor. I did submit an 'ash can' comic I did to some comic book companies, but DC was the only one who showed interest and they asked me to revise it to fit into the DC universe. Well by now I had finished my thesis and was working out of office space for a Contractor doing their custom homes and light commercial and running my own studio and was making more money than the reported comic book artist were making so I stuck with what came easily and stayed in the consruction industry instead of prowling the back streets of Gotham

[Ernest Burden III]

As for the artistic first endeavors. I was going to be an artist but as I grew up I realized I would probably be a starving artist since my dad was a musician and we grew up dirt poor. I did submit an 'ash can' comic I did to some comic book companies, but DC was the only one who showed interest and they asked me to revise it to fit into the DC universe.

 

Many years ago I had a comic slated for publication in Heavy Metal, my most-loved magazine (along with Skateboarder) but they fired the art director and killed all the things he had green-lighted. I hope it wasn't my strip that got him canned. I'm actually planning to re-do that very strip as a 3D animation soon, by the way. What's a quarter-century delay?

 

Parents--well, this is where my issues with art vs business come from. My parents went to San Francisco in the mid 50's to do art, architecture and all things creative. My father soon owned a gallery where they sold his and his arch. school friends paintings. My parents went there to start a rendering studio so they could make extra money while my father did his three years or arch. work to get licensed. Rendering paid better than architecture, so my father did that as soon as he passed the exam.

 

My mother then made models for museums--dinosaurs, landform miniatures of Calif.'s geologic zones, art for planetarium slides. But she hated having a job of art, and has spent most of her life doing sculpture just for herself, not making enough to even take care of herself sometimes. She is really good, and could be doing very well with a gallery selling her work. But she won't, and won't send me enough material to get it set up for her. She just does her art off in the desert. I haven't seen her in over 15 years. Though she has email now, so I get lots of random notes.

 

My father did rendering, gave up architecture, because it was a better income. And he can really draw. He developed the photographic layout process that is the precursor to CG rendering. There were always architectural models all over the house, I played with them once he was done with them. But even a move to New York and being a top billing renderer there wasn't enough so he quit rendering right when I started and went more into writing books and doing workshops on marketing for A/E firms. He always worked about 80 hours a week (still does) and always talked about the business end of things rather then the art end. I can't remember the last time I saw him draw anything.

 

So who's right--my mother who gives up money for art or my father who gives up art for money? Or me, who tries to skate down the middle and hasn't been all that good at business and hasn't done as much personal art as I think I should be doing?

 

There you go--a mini memoir, even almost on-topic. Almost.

[TheAllusionisst]

Many years ago I had a comic slated for publication in Heavy Metal, my most-loved magazine (along with Skateboarder) but they fired the art director and killed all the things he had green-lighted. I hope it wasn't my strip that got him canned. I'm actually planning to re-do that very strip as a 3D animation soon, by the way. What's a quarter-century delay?

 

........................................................

 

So who's right--my mother who gives up money for art or my father who gives up art for money? Or me, who tries to skate down the middle and hasn't been all that good at business and hasn't done as much personal art as I think I should be doing?

 

There you go--a mini memoir, even almost on-topic. Almost.

 

Hey, I look forward to seeing it. To me comics/illustrated novels, any kind of sequential art is strongly tied to good architecture as it relates to the experience of that architecture. Take the Greeks controlled pathways, forced view ports..... kind of like world sequential art.

 

 

So who is right, I think you have to find your own path in life, what I personally resented growing up is being poor, but I guess that builds character, my mom still jokingly says "Shuffle Russell, Shuffle" relating to a saying she would use when I was a boy growing up and she didn't want people to see the uppers where worn away from the soles except for by the heal, so if I didn't shuffle my holy socked feet would pop out and if I was careful the sole would double over. What I am saying is since I can laugh about it now, I guess it wasn't too traumatizing to me, but that is why I say if you have hungry kids your priorities are different, or perhaps should be.

 

Great mini-memoir. We have actually met and talked before at one of Jeff's AVC awards banquetts at SIGGRAPH a few years ago in LA. I had helped him set up tables and fill goodie bags! LOL I had known you from DataCAD related stuff as well as archvis and your name from your fathers.

 

Always enjoy your wordings and the fact that you seem to think before you post, something I don't do!

[litleboy]

If you ever get the correct answer, give me a call.

 

I'm an architect licensed from Mexico, I have been in the US for a little more than 3 years now. One can be sure of what we want, but even though sometimes the environment, the market, the situation your family takes you to ways you can't fully control. I had a really nice job back in Mexico but now my family has a better quality of life. but I had to star over professionally speaking.

[TheAllusionisst]

I'm curious. What percentage of your clients are architects? Come to think of it, I hear that Seattle is still a pretty hot market (like a Starbucks Latte). I'm gonna have my sales team zero in on it this week.

I'm really not kidding....

 

And all the artist in Seattle or the northwest are suppose to be worried is the insinuation I get from that. Knock yourself out

 

I agree with this point and it is unfortunate.

 

And yet every time it heads towards getting back on track you derail it or try to bully someone, shame on you.

 

Ok, but then maybe you should just keep your irrational thoughts to yourself. You shouldn't create excuses for what you say.

 

To me it is the recognition that I have irrational thoughts and that what may seem rational to me, may not to others and I was fondly pointing out that recognition.

 

But alas I am sure........... What is the point, I will take a lesson from Ernest and just ignore a lot of what you say. I will wish everyone the best of luck, take care and play nice and turn out the lights when you are done.

 

Thanks for the lively discussion Ernest