Rendering Community

[ikinman]

This is a reboot of Ernest’s earlier thread on the merits of creating a larger organized community of renderers and modelers to work together in some capacity to tackle jobs that an individual may not have the resources to do by him or herself.

 

There are at least two possible scenarios as I see it: one is to start up a group of people that tackle the ‘lower’ ends of production, modeling and scene setup and such. This group would then be a service group that would be used by individual renderers as a sort of temporary back-office, and similar to the type of service that is offered by remote render farms.

 

The second is to start up a group of people that act together to tackle larger projects that one person may not be able to do. In that case all aspects of the production would be done by the group, which would function more as a collective.

 

Topics for discussion include:

 

1. The merits of the idea

2. Should such a group be formed to work together

3. The advantages of such a group being geographically based versus not; in other words is it better for such a group to be centered around a specific locale to work together more efficiently or is it better for such a group to be dispersed and work together online.

4. Possible ways of organizing and running such a group

5. Possible ways of managing production

6. Who is interested in participating.

 

These topics for discussion are based on what I was able to glean from the 80 or so comments on Ernest’s earlier thread. It is an important enough discussion to merit more focus; views on the nature of outsourcing are an important topic, but there are other threads available to discuss those implications.

 

-Ian

[EddieLeon]

I think this idea has a lot of merit as long as it is not geographically based. I also think it should be some sort of online community.

Edited June 6, 2008 by EddieLeon
typo

[blowback]

I think this idea has a lot of merit as long as it is not geographically based. I also think it should be some sort of online community.

 

 

I would be very interested if it was something to that effect.

Edited June 6, 2008 by blowback

[RyanSpaulding]

Well, wasn't the point of EB's post 'in-sourcing'...which catagorically means geographically based, right?

 

So if we just band together, and then come to find out the group will consist of people who will charge well below standard US/UK rates due to lower costs of living...would we not have just created a super-group for 'outsourcing'?

 

I still don't know how I feel about this...as we're trying to combat the outsourcing that profit-centric business owners are taking...it seems that w/o geographical catagorization, we're starting the possibility that this backfires. IMHO.

[blowback]

I thought the point is that we charge and pay fairly, so the strength of this is the diverse talent pool, helping us to stay working, trying other markets, etc, not to pay people a wage that correlates the there present geography.

[EddieLeon]

...as we're trying to combat the outsourcing that profit-centric business owners are taking...it seems that w/o geographical catagorization, we're starting the possibility that this backfires. IMHO.

 

Ryan, I don't think there is anything to combat. Aren't you running a business also? Don't you need to be profitable? I think we all agree that it's ok to outsource some of your production to other artists.

 

So, let's disregard geography for a moment and consider what it would be like to have an online community that you can access at any time and have it do the production for you on any given day. Artists can bid to model the things that you don't have time to do. Maybe you can just select them based on your Geographical preference. That's ok.

 

The real beauty of the community will be that it's totally scalable to what you need done. Isn't that what Ernest is suggesting? The other advantage of the community can be that everyone will work transparently. They will be rated based on their performance, so they will try harder to make sure the job gets done correctly and on time. Another upside is that you can also list yourself as an artists that is providing services. Some clients will select you because of your unique portfolio and your geographic location.

 

There are some websites that already have these freelance communities. But, none of them are tailored to our industry.

[AJLynn]

I think that wherever the people are, if the standard is American/Western European scale money and the level of service is enough to get people to pay that, it will have the desired effect.

[EddieLeon]

I think market forces will determine the pricing. And that's ok because some clients will not be looking for the lowest price point. They may post a project that requires green screen, aerial video, and a brochure/website. This would obviously remove many of the artists from the running.

 

However, some artists might chose to band together and create "virtual companies". This is an actual business term that has nothing to do with VR. It means that the company is created temporarily by separate entities for the purpose of completing a project together. Imagine that

[AJLynn]

I'm just going by my reading of Ernest's idea here, but I thought the idea was to raise the standard for pricing. We can already outsource anything we want to in a price-competitive market.

 

The point of this seems to be to make an organization that people can go to to get work done to a certain standard with a certain standard of service and a simple point of contact. Not just a job board. Without making this a way to have the price of work be the Western price, Westerners can't participate, because if the interface is consistent then why the heck would anybody pay $40/hour instead of $10? The challenge then becomes how to make the service have enough value that people would go to it instead of outsourcing. This then raises the standard of pricing, whereas your idea lowers it.

 

It wouldn't matter where the people doing the work were, but they'd be charging the $40.

[EddieLeon]

Price controls and business don't blend well. I believe some artists will be able to charge $40 anyway. Their services will just be different from the ones charging $10.

[AJLynn]

Well then the original point is lost. If the idea isn't to create a price controlled system that can work, you're just talking about a way to organize outsourcing to suit your tastes - a glorified job board.

 

I'm not going to be the guy doing the modeling, but if such a system existed I'd send work its way. I'd use it if it had a simplified interface, good turn around time and good service. I'd need to be able to communicate with somebody during eastern US business hours. Sometimes I'd want to ask for somebody in Massachusetts if I want to meet in my office. If it were a good enough service I'd pay the $40.

 

If it's a job board for outsourcing, that's no more useful than things that already exist. Maybe you find the current system useful, you certainly seem able to take advantage of outsourcing and don't seem to care about whether people near you are working, but I think the point here isn't to help people who already enjoy outsourcing.

[EddieLeon]

My understanding is that Ernest needs a group of freelancers that he can count on to handle his over-flow work. He needs to be able to scale his production up and down depending on his sales. I think there are many other artists/companies that are in a similar situation.

 

I think this idea is not just a job board. It's more like a collaborative platform.

 

Also, if I didn't care whether or not "the people near me are working" then I don't think I would bother with this thread. The truth is that we all need to find new ways to work. Our industry is still young and nothing is etched in stone...

[AJLynn]

Read the original post in the original thread.

 

Edit: Now that I re-read the original post in the original thread, it calls for a US-based operation.

[ikinman]

Actually when I started this thread, I wasn't trying to limit discussion to just a US-based idea. In fact, I was actively trying to separate out that loaded discussion from the larger one of creating a loose organization of modelers and renderers, and what the merits of that idea might be.

 

As I see it there are two potential ideas here that I feel are worth exploring. One is to create a more collaborative based community, an online place where people can gather to team up on a project by project basis. The other would be in a sense a more freelance-based 'job board' (if you want to use that term) but one that I think would need to be more centrally controlled, so that guarantees could be made to clients for, as was mentioned, good turn around time and good service.

 

Of course both of those ideas are not mutually exclusive. And as Ernest has pointed out, back in the dark days of 1991, when work totally dried up in New York City, The New York Society of Renderers (NYSR) was such a community (though not then online) where people threw work at each other when they needed help. A little different than what I mention above, but it's certainly one such idea of renderers working together.

[Billabong]

I think if we can get all freelancers globally to agree on one certain price, then none of us are losing anything, no matter where they are. We may also need some sort of site up for that as well,which I think we should all just pitch in a few bucks and put up a really nice one, we need someone to moderate the site and jobs, its a lot to do, but if you guys are willing then I am deff. in

[Devin Johnston]

I think if we can get all freelancers globally to agree on one certain price, then none of us are losing anything

 

This is the best idea I've heard, didn't architectural firms have something similar back in the day?

[Billabong]

Thanks Devin, So I guess now is the time to chime in guys. I do believe this could work, but everyone has to do their part.

 

So how about it guys, who's in?

[WAcky]

I like the sound of it, I need work and I'm happy to do bits and pieces if it filles up the holes in my schedule...

 

 

But im in aus...

[znotlin]

"I think if we can get all freelancers globally to agree on one certain price, then none of us are losing anything, no matter where they are."

 

Can anyone say "anti-trust"?

 

that said an independent vetting agency that guaranteed a certain monetary amount to the artist and in return made sure that the artist was using legal software, would go a long way towards levelling the world's playing field, and be a good deal for independent artists, and their patrons, everywhere.

[AJLynn]

It wouldn't be an illegal trust because there would still be a lot of companies not participating; the collective would still have to compete on the merits of superior service. If it's possible for that to cause a broader shift in pricing policies, so be it, still legal.

[litleboy]

Lets say you can get 50% of the freelances around the world to agree. the other 50% will have better chances to get the jobs if they can offer the same quality, but still I think if there is even a small % to agree to set standards, the rest will follow in some way.

 

in other idea. will be nice to put my computer to work for other like a remote render farm, and I will get paid for the frames pixels produced, like the SETI network.

[RyanSpaulding]

I guess I just don't see how this works. I don't know how you'd get the freelancers everywhere to agree on a price...costs of living are too far apart...and although Eddie says that companies may pay someone $40 per hour vs $10, I'm skeptical. Obviously, a westerner will get hosed in the $ process because we have a higher cost of living.

 

Again, without restricting regions, I don't know how this works. The original concept with Ernest I thought was to see if INsourcing works. The 'IN' is an intregal part...because in OUTsourcing, we're discussing the 'OUT' part and how to combat it...keeping it INside the us/uk where cost of living forces a higher wage to be asked was. what I believe, the original target.

 

As a us/uk based operation, you could get freelancers to agree to a somewhat similar wage...there wouldn't be any of this $300 per full rendering nonsense that averages out to less than $10 per hour...ruining the value in the professionals in the industry.

 

The value would be in:

 

1. A network of artists who could band together to service larger projects, quickly and effectively

2. No language barriers...to a less extent, no time zone barriers.

3. The value of supporting local artists, jobs, and local economy...which are being destroyed by sending jobs overseas.

4. Then ability to set a more reasonable rate threshold.

[EddieLeon]

I like the sound of it, I need work and I'm happy to do bits and pieces if it filles up the holes in my schedule...

 

But im in aus...

 

That's ok. You can be anywhere.

I like the idea that we can divide projects into "bits and pieces". The cool thing about this is that artist can focus on what they like doing best (modeling, lighting, animation, motion graphics, or editing, etc). Some can even focus on sales and marketing...

 

The idea of a pier to pier remote render farm would be amazing also. This could really level the playing field for everyone!

[EddieLeon]

...and although Eddie says that companies may pay someone $40 per hour vs $10, I'm skeptical. Obviously, a westerner will get hosed in the $ process because we have a higher cost of living.

 

Yes...There will always be a market for the artists that charge $40+. Keep in mind, the cost of renderings are peanuts compared to the total cost of a development project. I have a client that essentially paid us $24,000 for 1 rendering. It was a unique situation because the client gave us very little time, expected high-quality, and it was a complex project (oh wait, that's all of our projects). Anyways, they paid and came back for more.

 

My point is that we need to learn to play the market and not fight against ourselves. Your market can bare $40+ if you focus on your client's needs and service them like no one else can. How and where you get your work produced is secondary as long as it is what you promised to your client. Get it?

[znotlin]

So what you're saying Eddie is that the ends justify the means?

 

That business should have no conscience, and that if someone else is willing to take the risk with illegal software and miserable working conditions that it is OK for you to know that and still hire them if they are the cheapest?

 

BTW in no way am I trying to imply this is the condition in all developing world shops, I am just trying to gauge where your fervent capitalism stops.

 

That said, if you are using your investment in China, to get the ear of the Chinese government to advocate for better human rights, and environmental change than god bless you, you are part of the solution.