CGA Job postings

[moshenko]

Hi,

 

I'm afraid this is going to be a bit of a rant but I want people to hear something from the perspective of an employer: I have ads running on the CGA job site - ads that I (my company) have paid money to run - that state specifically our intentions to hire individuals for in-office work, meaning they must be eligible to work in our location (Toronto, Canada). In fact, here is the exact wording of our posts:

 

"This is a full-time position on location in our office, situated in the heart of Toronto's design and fashion district. No contractors please! Applicants must be qualified to legally work in Canada."

 

Of all of the applications we have received to date, 75% have been from individuals that do not meet these criteria. Further, most of these have been from individuals with no intention whatsoever to meet these criteria, and a couple have been outright spam applications from companies overseas telling me about their outsourcing services. It is extremely frustrating (not to mention time-consuming) to go through all of these applications only to find that most of the applicants have no respect for the process that we are undertaking. Not only does it make me want to stop advertising on CGA - and I mean this as no disrespect to CGA itself - but it weakens my faith in those that I would consider a possibility for contract work, should it materialize.

 

Before anyone starts telling me that I'm beating up on contract workers, let me state a few things about why I am looking for on-site employees:

 

1. Canadian employment regulations state that we cannot hire individuals from outside Canada without first going through a thorough search for Canadian workers. When we cannot find a suitable candidate within Canada we then must prove to the government that we have conducted a reasonable search. Then, we must go through a work visa process that can take months to complete and that does not necessarily guarantee a successful outcome;

2. Contract employees cannot replace the dozens (or more) of benefits that full-time, on-site employees bring to a company. These benefits include, among other things, technical development, asset creation and organization, training, project management and team morale;

3. Contract employees are more expensive than full-time employees because of the reliance on hourly wages;

4. For many projects there is a need for immediate communication and action that often cannot be accomplished with a contract employee given their lack of exclusivity, time-zone differences and communication barriers.

 

As I said, these are reasons why I, personally, am looking for full-time employees right now. That is not to say that I am against contract workers, nor does it state that I am completely opposed to some of the outsourcing/insourcing concepts that have been discussed of late. I recognize that contract workers need to spread the word but applying to a job posting that he/she is not qualified for is not the way to do it, IMO.

[neko]

sensible post - hope you feel better now....

 

i suppose you could make an excuse for people contacting you that they were trying to provide you with options you might not have considered.

 

but as you said, you made that very clear in the job posting - no excuse in this case.

[amer abidi]

sensible post - hope you feel better now....

 

i suppose you could make an excuse for people contacting you that they were trying to provide you with options you might not have considered.

 

but as you said, you made that very clear in the job posting - no excuse in this case.

 

my sentiments exactly!

 

and on a much brighter note, I checked your website, some of the best work i've seen around!! no wonder you were getting all sorts of leachers trying to get their way in!

[RobNJ73]

The few times I've been on the hiring side of things, I've noticed that no matter where we advertised, only a fraction of the respondents met what we listed as the minimum requirements for whatever position it happened to be... if we were looking for a character animator at the time, I'd have to sift through 15 modeling reels before I found an animator's reel. I think it's really just the nature of the beast when it comes to want ads... people don't read. They see "we're hiring", and send in their info.

 

On the flip side, when I've been looking for work, I've been most successful when sending out my resume and reel to everyone, everywhere... even the positions I thought at first I had no chance for/wasn't qualified for. Every bit of job search advice I read said the same thing. Heck, I wouldn't have my current job if it wasn't for this approach.

[EddieLeon]

I haven't posted a job on CGA this year and I get those annoying emails anyway. I am accustomed to it so it won't prevent me from using the CGA job site. People are free to email whoever they want and for whatever reason. Even if it's a shot in the dark for them. This is something we just need to live with.

 

One suggestion that I have is that (for an extra fee) CGA can receive the applications first and pre-qualify them for you so you don't waste your time.

[moshenko]

i suppose you could make an excuse for people contacting you that they were trying to provide you with options you might not have considered.

 

If those options were things not normally considered then it might be OK. But I'm pretty sure that every employer in our industry knows that contract workers are available so I don't see it as an earth-shattering revelation

 

Hey, I understand as well as anyone that it is hard to get work sometimes and that one needs to get the word out. But I believe there should be an internal alarm that goes off when certain thresholds of qualification are not met, particularly when using a formal job site. I have also had people send their work to me via our website after seeing these job postings, and that's cool because it's a means of telling me they're interested and available while still respecting the process. I don't think a quality-check system would make this process any better - in fact it would probably add too much expense - I think this is a matter of personal responsibility and industry respect.

[ikinman]

Yeah, the two times I've used the CGA job board as an employer looking for people the exact same thing happened, so I empathize. What you need to remember is that there is really no cost for anyone to reply to your posting, so there is nothing to prevent them from trying to get your attention. That's more of the issue than people not paying attention to your job posting.

 

I have to admit, that if I were interested in a job at your firm, and you were advertising for a position that I wasn't qualified for (whatever the reason) then I would still seriously consider applying for it. To get my name out there, etc. Granted I might write a cover letter to that effect, but there would be no downside for me to apply for that job.

 

-Ian

[EddieLeon]

What you need to remember is that there is really no cost for anyone to reply to your posting, so there is nothing to prevent them from trying to get your attention.

 

 

How about a cost or inconvenience factor? Maybe a "snail-mail" response should be required instead of email.

[Ky Lane]

Fair comments...

 

I spent 6 months in Vancouver looking for work.. and noone either wanted me, or could afford me. I ended up coming back to Aussie.

 

I have a Masters in Digital Design, which makes me eligible for the "Skilled Workers Migration" scheme. Have you considered that?

 

If I didnt like motorcycling as much as MTB'ing, I would have settled in Vancouver Bloody weather is a major downer..

[EddieLeon]

If I didnt like motorcycling as much as MTB'ing, I would have settled in Vancouver Bloody weather is a major downer..

 

Miami weather might be a little better, but no hills or mountains here

[moshenko]

I have to admit, that if I were interested in a job at your firm, and you were advertising for a position that I wasn't qualified for (whatever the reason) then I would still seriously consider applying for it. To get my name out there, etc. Granted I might write a cover letter to that effect, but there would be no downside for me to apply for that job.

 

I can understand this, and a nicely-worded cover letter that provided evidence of having read and understood the job opportunity - and maybe offering potential solutions to any shortcomings - would be welcome!

[Ky Lane]

Yeah, its probably worth noting that not alot of us are salespeople - especially when it comes to ourselves. And if this site has taught me anything, theres no end to someones talent given the right people to bounce off, and technology and encouragement.

 

Seems, as long as someone has a good grounding, all they need is the "syntax" and the opportunity, and rock on.

 

Dont overlook someone, just because they cant sell themselves, or dont produce award winning work... yet.

[EddieLeon]

Dont overlook someone, just because they cant sell themselves, or dont produce award winning work... yet.

 

Maybe someone should post some do's and don'ts for job applicants. Kinda like what the career advisers do at schools.

 

Here is one of my don'ts:

 

Don't send a one line email with no resume and just a link to a website or youtube video. It looks really lazy when people do this.

[Ky Lane]

Yeah but, my point was... dont assume we know how to sell ourselves. You may be overlooking some serious talent in lieu of someone with a flashy CV or website. Let the work, and experience speak for itself.

[EddieLeon]

Ok, but who does the burden fall onto? Shouldn't the artists also learn to sell themselves?

 

It's like going to a bar to meet a girl. I wouldn't go dressed like a bum and stand in the corner picking my boogers. I would be assertive and try to make a good impression.

 

By the way, I was never good at this. My wife practically had to hit on me

[Devin Johnston]

To be honest if I were looking for a job I'd send my resume to anyone who was hiring regardless of whether or not I was qualified. I'm not concerned whether or not I make someone mad because they have to read through my resume, because if you don't hire me it won't matter. That may sound bad but it's the reality of the situation, when you’re unemployed and desperate for a job the inconvenience of others isn't your highest priority.

 

On the other hand I recently went through exactly what you’re going through now as I was looking for a full time person to help me out. I probably got 50 resumes by mail and only one of them turned out to be qualified. I specifically asked for no contract labor, and the person had to physically be in the office all of the time, at least two thirds of the applicants were exactly opposite of what I wanted. As others have said it's the nature of the beast and I don't see how you could screen these people out without having them pay to have access to the job board.

[Ky Lane]

Burden? You make it sound like an effort? At worst, youre checking out your competition. Seriously, be happy someone took any time to send you their work. No company should be so high up on their high horse as to have an attitude of "wasting our time". What we do isnt mission critical in terms of the planet, so effin' relax.

 

And while I get your analogy, Albert Einstein wasnt exactly the most appearance based or marketable person... but the guy was a genuis. I think computer game companies have some good ethos we need to look at.

[moshenko]

I'll agree with Eddie that this has to be a two-way street: I (the employer) am going through a lot of effort to make sure that I create a company that is professional and of a certain standard (and that allows people to make a living, don't forget!), and I expect the same effort from potential employees. Everyone needs to sell themselves in some way and it doesn't take a great deal to make a decent impression. A nicely-written cover letter and a few good samples of work will go a long way. In my experience anyone that is seriously talented also has the organization and communication skills to back that up. In fact, organization and communication trumps raw talent for me in most cases.

[EddieLeon]

What we do isnt mission critical in terms of the planet, so effin' relax.

 

Ok. The point you were trying to make is that employers shouldn't overlook talented artists. I agree with that. I'm just saying that when we get 100 applicants for 1 position then the talented artists should make the effort to stand out. Otherwise, we won't notice them.

 

Please don't read between my lines because I'm not trying to be the smart ass. I'm just trying to give advice which I clearly do not need to do.

[Ky Lane]

I'll agree with Eddie that this has to be a two-way street: I (the employer) am going through a lot of effort to make sure that I create a company that is professional and of a certain standard (and that allows people to make a living, don't forget!), and I expect the same effort from potential employees. Everyone needs to sell themselves in some way and it doesn't take a great deal to make a decent impression. A nicely-written cover letter and a few good samples of work will go a long way. In my experience anyone that is seriously talented also has the organization and communication skills to back that up. In fact, organization and communication trumps raw talent for me in most cases.

 

Totally agree, as am employer too... just hope people keep in perspective what theyre looking for. If youre looking for someone who has sales potential in their copywriting skills and have creative perspective, you're expecting someone to excel at 2 diff sides of the brain...

 

As someone with a masters in digital design, and that failed english in high school... I say dont judge a book by its cover.

 

If you want shithot work, look at the work... or at least the potential.

[moshenko]

=I'm not concerned whether or not I make someone mad because they have to read through my resume, because if you don't hire me it won't matter.

 

But that's the problem, it might matter. I'm not looking for contractors today but tomorrow may be another story. I've gone back through applications that were a year (or more) old to see if people were still interested in working for me. Business changes, situations change, and the size of this industry shrinks every day. Leaving the best possible impression is always the right thing to do, IMO.

[EddieLeon]

In fact, organization and communication trumps raw talent for me in most cases.

 

I agree with that 100%. Let me also add that a good character and a willingness to learn can also be more important than just a stellar portfolio.

[Sawyer]

I have been on both sides I have actually gotten a job where they asked for certain qualifications and even though I did not meet them I got the job because I was the best candidate. And I have been involved with hiring and seen resumes that have none of the qualifications that we advertised for.

 

Hiring people is hard. And while there is a strong talent pool here it is spread throughout the world. Good luck.

[Ky Lane]

Ok. The point you were trying to make is that employers shouldn't overlook talented artists. I agree with that. I'm just saying that when we get 100 applicants for 1 position then the talented artists should make the effort to stand out. Otherwise, we won't notice them.

 

Please don't read between my lines because I'm not trying to be the smart ass. I'm just trying to give advice which I clearly do not need to do.

 

Smart ass? hardly great topic, and something Im struggling with at the moment, hence my participation

 

Well, you're expecting someone to excel at something theyre not dedicated to - and as someone whos working in general advertising for 15 years, I think its a little unfair.

 

If you want a specialist, then judge on that.

 

If you want someone whos good at all things, then cool... judhe it on the cool website or CV...

 

All Im saying is, if you want someone whos shithot at ArchVis, judge on that, not webdev.

 

Could be a byproduct of working in Aussie too. i dont feel the need to impress someone if theyre in need of what I got... if you know what I mean.

 

Like I said before, what we do isnt earth ending shit, its just money making work. I know what I know well, Im not a salesperson or a copywriter... so I stick to what I know best.

 

Its the same as someone who turns up to a job interview in a nice suit... rock on... but anyone can buya nice suit. Its not demonstrative of what you're there for at the end of the day..

[AJLynn]

In this business, isn't presentation important? In architecture the resume, cover letter and samples are your most important marketing presentation. (I go so far as to print mine on A4 paper instead of letter because the aspect ration is more pleasing to the eye.) Mybe a lot of that has to do with architecture having schools with career services people pounding that into our heads until it sticks, but I would think that the same principles would carry over into visualization - surely it doesn't hurt to carpet bomb with resumes, but one good, well-targeted submission is going to be worth 10 resumes sent to whoever.