Matt Sugden Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) So has anyone on this board ever been threatened with legal action, for lack of sales because an image has been delayed? I have a nightmare ex/client who has stated that he reserves the right seek damages becuase of delayed production of images, he has lost out to potential customers, becuase they are now not able to get finance to purchase his properties becuase of the credit crunch. It sounds very untenable to me, but you never know! I posted a couple of weeks ago about a client not paying me, so I have taken legal action to recover the money. It has now got incredibly messy, as he seems to have sour grapes and is making all sorts of crazy claims, like that I delivered the images late after a fictitious deadline (which he obviously can't prove), and becuase of this he holding back payment becuase I charged a premium work rate (which I didn't). I made it clear in an email to him that images will be delivered in a normal time frame. And of course none of this was mentioned before I took him to court for not paying, within the cooling off period I give to clients after I have delivered a job. This whole issue is really making me feel like I need start using a very lengthy million word watertight super legal jargon contract with clients, which is a shame as what I currently have suits the majority of my clients fine. What's the boards opinion, do we really need to have a crazy super watertight legal document for every job? Or is that going to far, what I currently have is reasonably formal paragraph at the end of my contract stating re-work costs, payment terms, copyright and what's deemed as accepted finished work etc. It is clearly showing it's flaws with this situation, in that I haven't covered every angle (i.e. I haven't expressly put, 'my company is not liable for lack of sales of properties due to late delivery of images, or in accurate representation of development etc etc.') but this seems ridiculous to me? Edited July 16, 2008 by Bewdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike. Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 in the mentionned 'showme themoney' thread, didn't i told you to FORGET this guy and never work whith him again.... seriously.... this sounds bad. i have no real advice to give . but i'm whith you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat@MDI-Digital Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 personaly I wouldnt worry about it too much. I mean, if he cannot prove what you say (about deadlines etc) then really its all hot air. As for legal contracts and the like. I do alot of advertising work, and for that I have T&Cs (I can send them to you if you like), but Iv never really bothered with it on the architectual work.....maybe I should. Id be intrested on what other people think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Sugden Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) To be honest, the amount of money was border line, £1500. I don't know what that is in francs, but I felt it was worth pursuing. My feeling is that he is blowing a lot of smoke up my ass to try and put the frighteners on me, as legally I can't see how he has a leg to stand on. There never being a specific set deadline, him never mentioning the project was late, not to mention numerous amendments which were done at his request, after the project was completed, and me specifically telling him in writing that the project would have a lead time unless he paid a premium to make it a higher priority. Needless to say, I gave him 5 days after the delivery of the images (which he thought were great) to raise any concerns about quality, which of course he never did. Wouldn't you think that someone of the mind set that is losing customers becuase images are late, would be, a) paying or even asking to get them done a little quicker. b) complaining at the end of the job that they are late? Edited July 16, 2008 by Bewdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 do we really need to have a crazy super watertight legal document for every job? Or is that going to far, what I currently have is reasonably formal paragraph at the end of my contract stating re-work costs, payment terms, copyright and what's deemed as accepted finished work etc. Contracts are not necessarily about trying to hinder business but managing expectations. The companies I have worked for in the past have had very lengthy contracts that cover almost every scenario they have run into over the years. In my opinion, I would always use a water tight contract with EVERY client that fully outlines the cause and effect of every possible scenario that would or could apply to your business. This way you don't get into arguments like this as everything is clearly outlined what happens when situation X arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I think I told you before in the other thread to look at the ASAI contract they have on their web site, I think it's only for members but it's probably worth the price of membership to stop things like this from happening. Regardless of how big a job is you always need to state up front what deadlines and costs are, like Jeff said it's about managing expectations more than anything else. The more leeway you give a client the more they will take advantage of you, that's a general rule that may not be true in all cases but it's better to protect your self than to just take someone’s word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron-cds Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Not that it pertains in this case with you, but architects are always sued by owners for project delays. Time = money. However, a week or two delay on a project would not equate to a large enough loss for a client to sue a visualizer. As far as your contracts go, if you define the delivery schedule and you stick to it, you shouldn't have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leed Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Matt How far down the line have you gone with court proceedings? In the last thread you mentioned that you had the images removed from the estate agents... is this the same contact? I have been looking at bumping up my terms and conditions lately, after a similar incident with a client. The thing about it is it is always in hindsight you find out about these things.. Probably it was not a good idea to remove the marketing material... you only have copyright to the images, not the brochure, so this could be a sticky area here... How you go about enforcing your copyright is another thing I do not know how you do it... with out completely messing things up with the client... Did you follow any procedures prier to your actions... like emails.... letters.... letters from solicitors ??? You mentioned in your post that he is saying you delivered the work late... Did you have a dead line... ? The thing about this is no mater what contract or terms you have you will still get awkward people...I think he is shouting off to try and scare you....If you have communication between you and him regarding signing off the images, deliverables and the like. I can not see how he can complain now... he should have done that a lot earlier... The other thing is how much will it cost you to enforce this???? or him to push it through... more than the contract probably... One thing I have included in my terms is a clause that you will only be liable to damages up to the value of the job... Can you get in to sit down with him... or has it gone to far???? Good luck Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshenko Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I would recommend that you do the following right now: 1. Seek professional legal advice, even if it's just an informational meeting of some sort. 2. Collect all of your correspondance with this client and document your recollection of any phone conversations. Make a chronological list of all events so that you don't forget 3. Make multiple backup copies of all material related to this project and store them somewhere other than your office. 4. Figure out your contract for any new projects based on this experience. The outcome of this situation will probably be nothing serious (other than you failing to get paid, which could be viewed as serious!) but it would be wise to be prepared for the worst right off the start. If it does come down to some sort of legal action you will be better off if you organize everything now. Memory fades, things get lost, hard drives crash... I have had to send a collection agency to a client only once and the process took almost a year. I was successful in that case because someone gave me the advice that I listed above! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Sugden Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 While this is all well and good, and I agree with managing people's expectations, all be it rather on the job rather than in a page full of 4pt text. Surely such long winded contracts are an unnecessary officious formality in a lot of cases? To me it seems that this client would try and wriggle out of anything. Is it not more likely that if a client is of the mind set that not paying up is fine (and inventing reasons for doing so too), no amount of words or legal jargon is going to change that? and I'd still end up in the same boat? maybe just a more water tight boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Sugden Posted July 16, 2008 Author Share Posted July 16, 2008 (edited) To answer some of the other questions about this case, yes it is the same client. when i received his response about admitting the claim, I almost spat my coffee out when I read that he was contemplating counter suing because he was claiming the images were late, and I was so offended I rang him up immediately to get some straight answers from him. Since then, he has tried to get me cover all court costs and accept his initial payment, which I would do as long as he pays up first, which surprise surprise, he doesn't seem to want to do. so I'm not compromising my legal position in case he doesn't pay and I'll back to square one. To be honest he has plucked some numbers out of the air, such as holding back £600 for 'premium work', which is a totally arbitrary amount and not relating to anything, and also invented a deadline which is not included in any of our correspondence or order form. I would have thought personally, it would be extremely difficult to pin the liable of people not being able to get finance to purchase properties on the lack of my images (however flattering that might seem) as there are far too many variables which could effect those circumstances outside my control. Edited July 16, 2008 by Bewdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amer abidi Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 screw him.. i dont know if he's you're first, but sure as hell won't be your last. I so happen to deal with the scum of the scum.. not because i'm low ..lol.. but because large balled client's with small members tend to compensate for all their shortcomings by picking on what they see as small studios or service providers. I remember the first time a client called up to muscle me, i was so worried about my reputation that i went out of my way to please them.. little did i know that when i finally told them to go screw themselves that they wre nothing more than hot air blowers looking for more of a free ride. Cliets want MORE for LESS, and well, needless to say, they want it YESTERDAY. As long as you know you did your best within the resources and timeframe given, then dont waste time stressing up for no reason. like someone said here earlier... worst case scenario, he wont pay; which is what he's counting upon! so give it to your lawyer... dont stress youself up.. keep working hard. you'll face plenty of those half wits along the line. Keep going mate!! =) good people are hardto find...don't let them break you.. as per contracts, you learn as you go.. you develop a scent for clients... i hope you know what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 screw him.. +1 Matt, it seems that you are confident that you have abided by the conditions you agreed to with this client. Seek legal advice to confirm your position. One meeting with a solicitor will tell you everything you need to know. In the meantime, do not enter into any more correspondence with the client. If he tries to contact you, tell him you are passing it on to your solicitor and any further dealings should be forwarded through them. He's just trying to force you into battle on his grounds (very "Art of War", yes?). To this date, he's threatened all sorts of legal actions but you've heard nothing from his solicitor. If he had solid ground to stand on, you'd have heard from his solicitors by now. If he still wants the fight, take it to him...on your grounds when you know you will win (never fight a battle unless you have already won - also very "Art of War") As for watertight contracts, good clients with good intentions don't mind signing contracts. I have never seen a good client baulk at a fair and reasonable contract - they have no need to fear them as they don't intend to break the agreement, to this, it protects them too. If a good client messes it up once in a while, you can elect to overlook it and keep the relationship going, just keep the communication channels open. However, when you come across a bad egg, you have everything you need to back you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ky Lane Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hand it to a lawyer, and walk away mate. Tell the lawyer his bill cant go over what this guy owes you, so at the end of the day, you lose nothing, and potentially gain something. Either that, or send the lads around. I find this method works a treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 If your client has a reputable business then he will probably want to save face and settle for a lower amount (out of court). If not, then he won't pay and any money that you spend on a lawyer will be additional money & time wasted. In fact, if what you are owed is under $25,000 then a good lawyer will tell you it's not worth pursuing because a lawsuit (in the US) costs $10k-$15k easily. I recently won a lawsuit against a client that owed me $40,000 and even then I have still not been able to collect it. Collections is the dark side of our business... My advice is to learn from your experience and add all the terms and conditions possible to your contract. A good client won't be afraid of a healthy contract and I bet they'll respect you for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Branch Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 I recently won a lawsuit against a client that owed me $40,000 and even then I have still not been able to collect it. Collections is the dark side of our busines... It seems fairly obvious to me that it is time for you to hire Ky or perhaps some of his associates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 It seems fairly obvious to me that it is time for you to hire Ky or perhaps some of his associates! Lol...how much for his lads to pay a visit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ky Lane Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 They do you a favour... you do them a favour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 They do you a favour... you do them a favour... Ahhh...Sicilian style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ky Lane Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Nah, lads from the bike club. Amazing how a half dozen lads in your foyer in full leathers waiting for a cheque tends to speed the accounting process up. And the only currency the lads talk is Jagermeister, god bless'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Sugden Posted July 17, 2008 Author Share Posted July 17, 2008 yes sending the lads round is one tack, or the wife perhaps....! It strikes me as incredible that people who are obviously completely ruthless and thoughtless in their approach to business, do not fear similar reprisal for their bastardy actions. Believe me, I have dreamt about the possibility of popping down to his new houses, taking a baseball bat to them and spray painting the words payup mutha f**cker on the wall, but I am quite placid really and that is not how i operate. but it makes you wonder, if I was a lesser man. ha! If anyone has some Terms and conditions they wouldn't mind me having a look at, I would really appreciate that. Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alrawli Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Brings this to mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuAVgWJ28Hw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Lol...I think the flamethrower might do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 In all of my CGA advertising contracts I specify that if I have to take them to collections the amount owing will increase accordingly to pay for the collection fees and that I get my original amount owed. So it could cost someone up to 50% more in fees if I send an overdue account to collections. The problem with collections is that unless it's for $10K plus most collection agencies are not going to pursue it too aggressively. As Eddie pointed out, unless it gets ugly and you need a court to prove the amount is owed, you're better off to just avoid court/lawyers and I would send it directly to a collection agency. They just require a copy of the signed contract and the amount owed. You will usually pay 20-50% of the fee to the collection agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 There was a cast recently in the UK where a builder ripped down the extension to a house because the own refused to pay. He rocked up with a sledge hammer and a TV reporter and proceeded to demolish the structure. Now I am not suggesting going around with a sledgehammer. Have you tried to set up a face to face meeting to talk this through? or try mediation before going to court. Far cheaper and more often than not results are achieved quicker. jhv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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