Is Max a complete solution?

[Ken Walton]

I've been using 3ds for quite some time, but in the past it was mainly for media animation and other non-architectural applications. When making the switch, I decided to stay with and keep upgrading max rather than going to VIZ, just because it seemed more functional in the end. Now I'm not so sure. As a fairly skilled modeler, both NURBS and polygonal, I was certain that repetitive geometry and simple objects, such as a classique door and transom that varies only in width, used multiple times throughout scenes and projects would be a breeze compared to the unique objects I was used to working with. The modeling of the actual door object can be perfect, but getting these damn things into and around a house (either by xreffin', merging, or import) seems to be much too time consuming to be considered practical. I bring this up because of the ease of simple "office depot" programs like 3D Home Archtiect. This little programs have a drag-and-drop "perfect placement" of cataloged objects capability which HAS to be implemented in some higher end program. Is there some link betwen AutoCAD and 3dsmax that I'm missing? The only thing I can do with the .dwg files I've gotten from this architect is load 'em up and retrace what I need to create my extrude splines for the walls. I can't help but feel like there has to be something missing - even if it's just knowledge.

 

In short, is there any way in max (or other platforms) with or without plugins (which ones?)to get this obviously necessary simplicity for repetitive objects without sacrificing the the ability to change parameters (like casing profiles)? Most of this I believe would come from scripting, but from what I've found through my own experience and what I've seen on here, the functions you need (loft, mainly) have proven to be damn near impossible to incorporate into a decent script.

 

If you have any ideas, comments, questions or suggestions, PLEASE, bring it on. I'll be more than happy to describe my current processes if you're interested.

 

Thanks in advance -

 

Ken Walton

[quizzy]

hey,

 

i've found the doors plugin for max4 a little too simple, you can not add door handles and you can't select profiles for the rails. so this gave me an idea to write a script for it, it will be mostly conform dutch building techniques. And it will still be with some variables, like:

- different profiles

- height, width, thickness (profile and door)

- choose between steel and wooden rails

- and maybe a drag 'n drop dunction.

 

But the script is not finished yet, its only an idea, but soon i'll start programming it.

 

o, and check this link out for some methods on how autocad works with max...

 

[ July 23, 2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: quizzy ]

[Ken Walton]

Thanks, quizzy

 

Can't wait to see the script if you're showing it... That could turn out to be a pretty valuable plugin if there's not one out there. As for the drag&drop function, where would this go in the script, theoretically? Would this be before or after the walls are built?

 

Next question: When doing walls, I've preferred the extrusion of splines also. But am I doing it right? I usually trace only the solid, unbroken sections of walls, leaving "holes" where doors, windows, and arches will be placed. I then do my extrusion to 80" (tops of all doors), then edit mesh>poly extrude once to 96" (header height) then again to my ceiling height. These extra vertices give me vertex snap capability when placing or creating those objects afterwards. Once the doors and windows are placed, I basically just create boxes to fill in the holes, and then boolean union the structure together. I guess you could create vertices at all the sill heights to if you wanted to get perfect boolean results that you didn't have to clean up, but the first approach seems to work fine if your walls use procedural textures. This method has seemed to be much more efficient than any other I've tried (ie. creating solid walls w/ holes for windows, or boolean subtract - whose results seem to produce too much wasted geometry.) Anyway, if there's a better approach, let me know ASAP.

 

I had seen the post you sent on the CAD>max topic, and I'm fairly certain I've done all I can do. The architect who has provided me files appears to be using AutoCAD LT - and before I knock his experience I want to open the floor for you guys to tell me if I'm the problem. The project is for a high-rise condominium, so the dwg file is huge to begin with. But using any of the original file to do my extrusions has proven impossible, because the walls for one particular unit will be composed of pieces of up to five different layers. On top of that, most of the vertices aren't closed (even after weld is selected) or even near each other. Where I'd need a single spline, he has up to 8 overlapping splines in its place and not one of them is usable alone. Hence, tracing the portions I need of his files has proven 100x faster (which is still time that should be spent somewhere else) than trying to clean up the original to the point of usability. Again, let me know if I'm possibly at fault here - PRODUCTION > PRIDE...

 

Thanks for your input man, and lemme see that script!

 

Ken Walton

[STRAT]

hi there Ken

 

i must say, as far as architects and technitians go doing plain old 2d CAD work? i wouldn't trust them farther than i could throw them.

 

i have yet, in all my experience to see one architect / technitian to be at least a half decent CAD draughsman.

I create all my 3d work in AutoCAD, usually using an architect's own CAD plan for my base. But so far, 100% of all the drawings given to me to work off i've had to trace over them creating my own lines for extruding.

Architects who draw in 2d CAD generally (if not always) dont need to be as accurate a draughsman as the 3d artist. lines aren't allways parrallel, verts dont meet, end points over lap, a single line can be made up of at least 5 separate lines etc, etc, ....the list is just endless.

I dont waste valuable time checking a 2d CAD plan anymore because i know i'll have a time wasting nightmare doing it. I'll always re-draw my own. much quicker this way.

Autodesk's Architectural Desk Top allows easy drag and drop 3d elements into your plans, i use it daily. but i have to be happy with the drawing im using in the first place. thats why i trust no one other than my own drawings.

 

dunno if i'm wondering off the subjects here, but i hope this helps some.

 

EDIT - no offense intended to any architects/technitians here btw, i'm just talking about the ppl i've worked with in the past

 

[ July 23, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: STRAT ]

[plastic]

yeah, i hardly ever get useable 2d plans from architects, because they need the visualization in a very early stage (presentation) and work in a very 'dirty' way in this phase.

i use archicad for modelling, it has an 'overlay' function, which easily allows drawing/constructing walls over imported 2d plans.

its very fast this way, since i don't have to mess around with broken splines, overlapping lines etc.

archicad is the best tool for architectual modelling IMHO. great wall tool & fully parametric doors, windows & objects, much better/faster to use than autocad/architectual desktop, and the exported 3d data is very clean (compared to autocad).

[Ken Walton]

STRAT-

 

Thx for the response. I'm relieved to know that I wasn't just a dunce here. I've been interested in ADT for a while now, but haven't made the time to check into it. Does it run independently, or do you need AutoCAD or Architectural Studio with it?

Either way, what's the ballpark on funds I'm gonna have to drop to get going with one or both of these, how soon could I typically get the products in hand, and is the learning curve/familiarization of the new product(s) too steep to incorporate the purchases into the middle of an ongoing project?

 

Thanks again,

Ken Walton

[Ken Walton]

Marc:

 

I've heard a little of ArchiCAD, but not enough to comment (sorry - relatively new to this end of cartesian space). What's the ballpark $ on it, and where can I find more info? How much data is carried over in the export? For example, my woodworking files come from a cabinet designer using CabinetWare, and the exported dxf's are okay - they basically give me accurate dimensions to rebuild them quickly with doors of various sizes I've created. What sucks is that the actual CabinetWare files contain the detailed items such as the raised panel doors, crown mouldings( I think), and stuff like that, but it exports none of those details (the ones that we really need to create realism). Does ArchiCAD?

 

Thanks,

Ken Walton

[Cesar R]

Hi, Archicad is many by Graphisoft and it run around 1,200.00 US ? As far as exproting into max, it exports evertying into very nice and clean models. Even the meterials are preserved. I you want to replace the materials you can always use Marc's plug . (U need to fix the importer j/k, I'll e-mail you later Marc) Anyway, Achicard rules !

[plastic]

>>What's the ballpark $ on it, and where can I find more info?

 

www.graphisoft.com

it is slightly more expensive than autocad, about 4000€ / us$ if i remember right...

thats a bummer, but its a full replacement for autocad (also for 2d plans and dwg/dxf handling).

check out the demo.

 

>>How much data is carried over in the export?

 

100%

every detail gets exported, without errors, flipped polygons, open meshes...

i wrote an importer which further optimizes & organizes archicad data for 3dsmax/viz, if you're interested.

( http://plugins.marclorenz.com )

 

my online portfolio is down right now, but i will try to collect some archicad->max pictures on a temporary page tomorrow.

[Ken Walton]

Hey everyone-

I really appreciate all the feedback - it's really been helpful. I've been checking out the specs on ArchiCAD and they look pretty solid. I'm impressed. The sections of the demo I've checked out make this look like exactly what I've been searching for. Besides the design and "building" of the scenes, are there any other features that are superior to max (ie. the render/walkthroughs/etc)? - some of the pics in the galleries are fairly impressive. Anyway, as far as the good stuff goes, I'm sold... but what are its downfalls?

 

Thanks -

Ken Walton

[Ken Walton]

Alright - the more I check out ArchiCAD, the more I'm kicking myself for trying to do any of this without it. But how does 3ds fit into the picture "post-ArchiCad"? For example, I'm using 3dsmax with FinalRender right now, and one of my favorite fR features is the additional material options. How well will these exported objects accept the new mats, and is mapping a real pain at this point?

 

Secondly, I can only imagine the increase in production using a product like this as opposed to max alone. Is ArchiCAD really this powerful? The only drawback I've noticed (which is marginal) is the quality of the models available online - which is actually overpowered by the amount of objects available - as opposed to some of the higher end 3d stuff. Are the majority of these really practical for a final photorealistic rendering? If so, I'll buy it tomorrow.

 

Thanks,

Ken Walton

[plastic]

imported archicad objects are editable mesh format. the imported objects have uvw-mapping (1x1x1m box mapping here, don't know about inch)

[ZepSOFD]

Ken,

You can also rent Archicad if you don't want to spent the $3600-$3900US for the package. They have a USBKey for 100 and 300 hours, the 100 runs a couple hundred and the 300 runs about $500 if you need short term usage or want to test the product this may be something to look into.

 

tom

[squid]

ken,

 

you might also download some autolisp routines online to help you clean up some of those overlapping lines in autocad before making splines out of them. it might speed up your work.

 

squid

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

Some thoughts on the oldest post in this topic (I've not been able to check the boards for two days due to real heavy migraine-attacks):

 

Being an architect myself, I have to say that plans are only a representation of reality, not reality itself.

We e.g. draw a little space between windows and walls, to make them look better, not because it's real... much like the way that a painter does not draw every leaf on a tree (yeah here I go again... ;-p )

 

About a window/doors-script: I have to admit that I tried that one before too, but as you cannot select splines with maxscript it's pretty useless/hard as the bevel profile modifier nor lofting are an option.

Personally, I prefer a good databank with different types of windows/doors which you can import with a single click and edit easily in sub-object mode (vertex selection, transform modifier, and a parent coordinate system)

 

rgds

 

nisus

[nisus]

oops i forgot to answer Ken's question "is max a complete solution?"

 

For me and the guys in the firm it is. You need some extra scripts to speed things up, but you can do without too. A good material library and a modelbank are recommended too, but you'll build this over the years

 

rgds

 

nisus

[Ken Walton]

nisus:

 

The approach you've described is exactly the one I took when starting off. Being that I work independently and was just starting off, the creation of my model bank was what was killing me. Most of the stuff I've done in the past has required damn near perfect and extremely complex models which required and were allowed the time it took to complete them. When you're tackling a high rise condo development though, and you'd like to get the thing built virtually before the construction team does physically, this is not an option. I had pretty much all of my standard objects modeled and droppable from the asset browser, but when it comes to filling fourteen different floor plans with different (decent) furniture, the time adds up. Alot of the collections I've found for sale, ie. Mr.CAD, looked decent online, but alot of the actual products weren't sufficient. There is some really good stuff available on TurboSquid from a few houses, such as Inspire3D, and de esponsa (sp?), but your model costs can really start to add up. I guess doing it this way is possible, just pretty hard to pull off in the beginning.

 

Thanks,

Ken Walton

[nisus]

Hi Ken,

 

Having a good databank is indeed preferable, but one should be aware of the trap of making an allround databank on the forehand (considering that buying everything one wants is not an option). It's really impossible to make a 'perfect' databank before you start working on any project. The only way of doing it, is to build your database one step at a time. For example, you could model one piece of furniture per project and in the end, you'll end up having a good collection.

 

rgds

 

nisus

[plastic]

>>We e.g. draw a little space between windows and walls, to make them look better, not because it's real...

 

yeah, that's a trick i learned recently. i always tried to copy reality & technical detail, until someone ordered me to 'make that room 1 m higher' and make the walls 10cm thick instead of the real 40cm. there is a lot of room for cheating with architectual vizualisations, the key to make something look good is often not to make it look real.

 

>>About a window/doors-script: I have to admit that I tried that one before too, but as you cannot select splines with maxscript

 

what do you mean by 'cannot select splines'? i'm pretty sure you can. if you tell me exactly what you want, i may be able to help you.

 

>>it's pretty useless/hard as the bevel profile modifier nor lofting are an option.

 

in fact there is a way to use them. i will show you an impressive example in a few days.

 

>>Personally, I prefer a good databank with different types of windows/doors which you can import with a single click and edit easily in sub-object mode (vertex selection, transform modifier, and a parent coordinate system)

 

yeah, i considered doing some kind of library drag-and-drop script for doors/windows, with auto boolean etc., to make it easer, but someone on this forum said he is doing one, so i pushed it back on my priority list. i'm making door/windows in archicad anyways.

[nisus]

Hi mark,

 

some thoughts:

 

- about cheating: I was talking about conventional plan-drawing. I didn't mean to really cheat i.e. twist reality to make it better. It's a hell of a moral story... but I urge that if architects that don't like the visualisation should rethink their design, not alter the visualisation only. Maybe this is a good topic for a poll: Morality in Visualisation

 

- about 'cannot select a spline': see scripts

http://www.cgarchitect.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000011

 

- about drag&drop-script: automatic search&import script: ok (did this over a year ago) / auto-boolean: damn, I wouldn't know how to start it...

 

rgds

 

nisus

 

[ July 28, 2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: nisus ]

[stefkeB]

As I am both Architect and an ArchiCAD user (having used AutoCAD & VectorWorks before):

 

Only with tools like ArchiCAD, Architectural Desktop, Revit, Allplan & Triforma is it feasable for an architect to work fully in 3D.

 

Plain AutoCAD & Microstation are fantastic technical CAD-environments, but they take too much time to handle a building in 3D (including detailed doors, windows, openings, roofs, stories!!!).

 

When I use ArchiCAD (€5500 in Belgium!!!) the 3D-model is the base for every plan, section, elevation, detail-drawing and well, the 3D itself.

 

I have been trying the plugin from Marc for VIZ (and they do help a lot!!). I still need to find an automated way of updating geometry (although the manual way of loading geometry and copying modifiers usually doesn't take longer then about 15 minutes).

 

The model from ArchiCAD from the 3ds-export is good. Texture coordinates are applied, so you can play with about any material property in VIZ for rendering.

 

If ArchiCAD would have a better built-in renderer (you can use AV_Works now -- the Art*lantis rendering engine) then you would be able to do everything in one tool: modeling, rendering, camera animation and instant access to all the parametric power of ArchiCAD.

 

I think they should make some "live connection" with tools like VIZ (sort of like the dwg-linking with ADT --- you can use this with DWG's from ArchiCAD, but it is less convenient).

[matt_vinoir]

Well, they would but then they do have ADT wic works in a similar way! All thesecompanies should just be nice to each other and let everyone share! lol i wish evil bastards that they are!

 

Every package has its limitations, and in knowing these you are already a step ahead, better the devil you know etc.

 

With archicad, i can't write gdl, so i'm stuck with the archicad doors and windows ( lika dolls house!) unless a create my own and make them libray objects. However in this case i am doing no different that in max, boolean a hole and fill it with your own window. Of course this can lead to lots of nasty problems. I think archicad will be a really fantastic tool by version 8 with its booleans etc.

 

Erm, this is a bit tangental but i'd have to say yes and no to the orginal question if you used other programmes already your mindset has to be altered. If max is your first programme, then likewise.

 

P.s. Marc, is there anywhere to get better doors windows objects? Or what about extra door handles etc in the door library for example?