Revit vs ArchiCAD

[Antisthenes]

I got a kick out of today's UpFront Zine # 582

 

"A Few Comments to BIM Developers

Readers React"

 

http://www.upfrontezine.com/2008/upf-582.htm#a

 

sample:

"I know it sounds like a 'punch in the mouth' to the software people, but in these economic times when engineers and architects are being asked to do more with less (for less), the ROI [return on investment] using BIM has yet to be proven. It certainly has potential, but adopting its use just because the software industry says we should is absurd."

 

BIM is not used to just create CDs. The purpose of BIM is to close the gap in the issues brought up in recent surveys that say '...construction-related disputes are on the rise':

• Architect/engineer error (43%)
  
• Excessive change orders (36%)
  
• Owner/contractor interference (35%)
  
• Non-performance of sub-contractors (30%)
  
• Differing site conditions (26%)
  
• Acceleration (24%)
  

"As for the BIM junkies I mentioned in my second sentence, how many of them have to meet a time schedule to get a permit? In fact, how many have ever sealed a CD set?"

 

"As for casual observers, they can't read 2D drawings. BIM is used to clarify, not mystify; any good BIM operator can build-design rings around a 2D drafter or 3D modeler. It is an understanding of the to -- or misunderstanding -- that Mr. Chaney points to when talking about firms that invest in BIM tools.

"You can have the world's finest built piano, but if you can't play, the piano is just wood, metal and wires."

The part about the autodesk conference call was interesting as well:

 

Hoarding cash, rather than buying back shares (could also mean no more acquisitions).

 

"We're doing a re-evaluation of our product portfolio. ...80% of our revenue comes from 20% of the products or something in that neighborhood. So we are looking at what goes on in the other 80% of the portfolio and how important is that to the ongoing health of the business." Sounds like some software could get eliminated. If products are cut, what happens to the associated staff?

- - -

The company has $941 million in cash, but 80% is locked up in foreign banks due to the 30% tax the USA imposes on imported money.

no more acquisitions everybody can breath easier now, well except those users of the products that get cut and their programmers Edited November 24, 2008 by Antisthenes

[Jason Matthews]

well archicad isn't owned by autodesk..... there's one argument for ya!

 

Yes there's great applications like Navisworks, and with IFC formats that allow us to exchange "smart data" sometimes your BIM platform doesn't matter, however there's no laws stating a client can't request it's user's into a specific platform to aid in collaboration. Revit's has a wider user count in the US, Archicad has a larger user count outside the US (this is something I've been told, not 100% sure) which leads me to believe that projects in the US are more likely to be requested on Revit.

 

I have a feeling this is true for us as well. We have received some RFPs lately from universities stating that they want the program done in Revit. The only issue is that I think "Revit" is being used as a generic term for BIM and the common person doesn't know any better. Obviously we need to ask around about that. It does us no good to go with a piece of software that does not allow us to be competitive for a job.

[Jason Matthews]

Can you afford to spend some time working with them and a typical project from your firm? If it's a "hey, do this in your spare time give us a decision in a week" thing then I mock your managers. But if you can say "hey, let me try to get the Smith Building in to each of them. Take a month or two" that would be nice. And maybe luxurious. It is a huge decision and many dollars do ride on it.

 

Peter,

 

We have established a "task force committee" to take a look at both pieces of software and give feedback. We have about 6 or 7 people in the office who have been asked to put a list together of about 10 to 15 items that they feel are most important in deciding choosing the software. When we receive these responses, we will list them from 1 to whatever based on the importance of each. From there we will evaluate each piece of software and give a 1-10 grading for each category for both pieces software. We will then take the average from each category and add then together to get a final score. Then of course the one with the best score gets our recommendation to the principles of the firm. Finally, there will be about 2-3 people on a project. After that project those 2 or 3 people will branch out to start separate projects and add another person or 2 to the team. The process should take about a year I believe, depending on the projects.

[Antisthenes]

Learn it all so you can really make your mind up about what you want to be using if you have the choice is good advise, but also check out Tekla for BIM it does some of the best structural steel bldgs and all there parts and analysis, details nuts bolts et al. and plays nicer all the time esp. with Revit. Bently has some stuff too for the structural and architecutral side of BIM.

[Jason Matthews]

First let me say that if anyone disagrees with what I have written below please speak up. Please understand that BIM is new to our entire firm and we can only make decisions based on what we have discovered and what we have researched. Furthermore this is my firm's decision and does not dictate which software is better by any means.

 

I wanted to update everyone who is following this thread of our progress. Below is a few items on our list of important decision making factors in the order of importance as mentioned in my previous post:

 

1. Cost (subscription, vs. upgrade)

2. Consultant interaction (can we work seamlessly with consultants)

3. Model type requested from the client (Is a Revit model a generic term for BIM?)

4. File size (large file sizes are murder on the hardware and cause the hardware to wear out faster)

5. Ability to handle large files without upgrading hardware

6. Dual processor support

7. Maneuverability in 3D vs. always having to work in plan view

8. Network support

9. Ease of working with multiple users

10. User interface

11. Available content

12. Support

13. Training options

14. Automated processes (dimensioning etc)

15. Quick rendering – visually appealing

 

After running through the ArchiCAD BIM Experience Kit I can honestly say that it is one piece of powerful software and that if our firm could overlook the cost and compatibility of the program to Revit then it would be our choice of software.

 

That being said we cannot overlook items 1-3 on the list above. Below is the conclusions we have come to that justify Revit over ArchiCAD.

 

1. Our firm is getting a great deal on cross-grading our AutoCAD Architecture licenses to Revit and AutoCAD Architecture for 1/3 of the regular price. That is substantial savings compared to having to buy it outright.

 

2. Being able to export into a generic file format for the purpose of an "X-ref" of sorts in order for our consultants to work in their BIM software is pointless and all honesty a waste of time. A model with all of the architecture, MEP, and structure is the ultimate goal of BIM technology and thus leads me to my next conclusion.

 

3. 95% of the time (pulling that number out of my ass) if a client (typically universities or large campuses of sorts) requests the model they do not ask for a "BIM model" they ask for an "Revit model". Therefore we cannot ignore the fact that we would essentally be shooting ourselves in the foot if we went with ArchiCAD because no one wants that kind of model.

 

However, there is still an itch to perhaps purchase a few licenses of ArchiCAD so that those of us who choose to use it can do so on those projects where we work with consultants who are not BIM based and projects that do not require the end model.

 

Please let me know what you think.

[mzex]

1. Our firm is getting a great deal on cross-grading our AutoCAD Architecture licenses to Revit and AutoCAD Architecture for 1/3 of the regular price. That is substantial savings compared to having to buy it outright.

 

2. Being able to export into a generic file format for the purpose of an "X-ref" of sorts in order for our consultants to work in their BIM software is pointless and all honesty a waste of time. A model with all of the architecture, MEP, and structure is the ultimate goal of BIM technology and thus leads me to my next conclusion.

 

3. 95% of the time (pulling that number out of my ass) if a client (typically universities or large campuses of sorts) requests the model they do not ask for a "BIM model" they ask for an "Revit model". Therefore we cannot ignore the fact that we would essentally be shooting ourselves in the foot if we went with ArchiCAD because no one wants that kind of model.

 

However, there is still an itch to perhaps purchase a few licenses of ArchiCAD so that those of us who choose to use it can do so on those projects where we work with consultants who are not BIM based and projects that do not require the end model.

 

Please let me know what you think.

 

don't know what is the price of the upgrade to archicad for autoCAD users especially not in USA.

 

So as for exporting ArchiCAD's files,I have to admit I don't understand what are you trying to say in your 2nd reason. You shouldn't have any problems since you can export it do DWG, DWF, PDF, Photoshop image, jpeg, tiff etc. So your consultants can be able t owork in their CAD or BIM software, no matter which BIM you use (Revit or ArchiCAD). Archicad has his own MEP modeler. http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/solutions/mep_modeler.html and there is a lot of programs for statics compatibile with AC (ifc standard). To model installations in project model is pretty usefull and am looking for other engineers (mep engineers) that are interested in using that kind of software. So communication between ArchiCAD and other software was never a question.

 

Third reason is completely pointless. If someone uses fname revit for a BIM model that doesn't mean it is better. Revit is BIM, so model made with Revit is BIM model. For eqsample in Croatia people use name Digitron for calculator, because it was very popular here (propably a the only availabe :-), and that doesn't mean Digitron is better than Casio or Texas instruments etc. Revit and ArchiCAD are both BIM.

 

Those two reasons you mentioned are not valid (at least not for me) to decide.

 

I personally use ArchiCAD for more than 5 years and it really great software. Revit demo version only installed to my computer tried it for a couple of minutes, so I can't say much of it. I didn't like about it that there was not icons in stair tool, but descriptions. It is confusing to read all those words in software it is much more user friendly if you have icons. my only con for Revit. :-D

[Jason Matthews]

Mzex, Thank you for your comments. Let me try to answer your questions.

 

1. The price to crossgrade between ADT and Revit is about $1285 per seat and that gives us ADT and Revit and subscription. ArchiCAD is $5000 + subscription cost of $650.

 

2. You are correct in that you can export any file type imaginable from ArchiCAD however the few consultants we have that are working in BIM are using Revit. The structure isn't a big issue as they can model their own structure independent of our Architecture models.

 

The real issue is the MEP becasue they need our models to take advantage of Revit MEP. If they do not have our models and only have the IFC model then they either have to remodel the building (not an option) or they have to do conventional drawings and calculations which does no good for the client if they want a full complete BIM model. Our MEP consultants will not change to ArchiCAD because Revit does certain calculations for them (not my specialty, sorry). There is software out there that can run the calcs but that is more money that the consultants will have to spend if they switch to ArchiCAD.

 

Additionally, it seems like nothing comes standard with ArchiCAD in terms of MEP modeler, and any analysis programs. I am not saying the same isn't true for Revit as well but that is why firms buy Revit MEP and Revit Structure.

 

3. My third reason makes perfect sense. We cannot control the fact that a client requests certain model types be it Revit or ArchiCAD. All we can do is make sure we can provide the format that they request, thus the reason why we may end up getting a few subscriptions of ArchiCAD.

 

Please let me know what you think,

 

Thanks,

[mzex]

First question:

Are Consultants engineers who work on installations (electrical, heating and conditioning and plumbing) for your architectural project?

 

if, yes, here in Croatia we call them cooperants (subcontactors)

 

back to topic.

 

If your consultants do use Revit , then you should go for Revit. End of story.

 

Clients ask for revit model. Here we don't give models to our clients. we give them Quick time animations and VRs + PDF with blueprints and renders.Don't know why would client need raw model and which software would they use to open it. what kind of projects do you do?

 

but what I wonder is what are your conclusion on functionality, eas of use, after comparing those two softwares in your office.

 

and ArchiCAD got multi core support

Edited December 19, 2008 by mzex

[mzex]

Forgot to tell.

Al of my cooperants (MEP engineers) use AutoCAD. I have no problems communicating eith them. I am looking for those who use Archicad MEP modeler.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2231948/Revit-vs-Archicad-vs-Microstation

Edited December 19, 2008 by mzex

[Jason Matthews]

Consultants are the MEP and Structural Engineers.

If our consultants use BIM then they use Revit. Therefore we will go to Revit.

 

Typically we give clients "as-built" drawings at the end of construction. The "As-built" drawings are essentially a full set of drawings that have not only the original documents but the change orders and current built conditions. The clients use these drawings for maintanence and reference. Instead of giving them "As-builts" they want the BIM models. Most clients who ask for this include but are not limited to universities, state and local buildings, office buildings, etc.

 

The comparision between the two is simple to us. ArchiCAD is the software of choice based on useability, intuition, and hardware. The software curve seems to be quicker to learn and more intuituve than Revit. It is also much lighter on the hardware. Revit is extremely RAM intensive. AutoDesk recommends 4-6 gigs of RAM to maximize productivity on larger projects. The only way to utilize 6 gigs of RAM is to have a 64-bit OS which right now we are all running XP pro. This means we have to upgrade almost 35 motherboards, 35 OS, and then crossgrade the 35 licenses from AutoCAD Architecture to Revit. Also, the mulitple CPU abilities do not do much for the programs except for rendering. Most of the loads are generated on the RAM and video cards.

 

Even after we do all that upgrading, it is still cheaper per computer to go with Revit over ArchiCAD. As I mentioned before, if we didn't have to worry about working with consultants and their BIM platform or have to worry about the upfront cost, we voted 5 to 0 in favor of ArchiCAD. But reality being the proverbial bitch that it is we cannot overlook these two very important factors.

[mzex]

I understood it right.Consultants are cooperants here in Croatia.

 

Well, don't know if it is possible to open ArchiCAD model in Revit. Well, if your consultants do use revit MEP then it is the best for you to implement Revit into your office. My consultants use AutoCAD and I can't implement none of their projects into my model. Structural engineers use Tower.

 

But what is more important for me that you have came to conclusion that ArchiCAD is easier to use. I tried that Revit for a few minutes and was not pleased with not being intuitive as archicad.

But few days ago I saw some functions of Revit.

http://autodesk-revit.blogspot.com/search/label/Revit%20how%20to

 

Have to say first one is hard to get it, while 2nd one is impossible to make it in ArchiCAD. When I was beta testing AC12 there was roumor that in version 13 everything will be editable in 3D. And we do have maxonform and connection to Cinema4d so those things can be done with that software.