Stolen Images

[Charles Leo]

I made a post yesterday about someone stealing my images and posted to the three major forums - that of Chaosgroup, CGArchitect, and Evermotion.

 

Much to my surprise, I received an email this morning saying that the one CGArchitect was deleted. I also went to the Evermotion forum to read comments and the post here was deleted as well. I assume by an administrator.

 

Just to let you know, the person who STOLE images from me (and watermarked them) called me up twice begging for me to remove his email from these forums and apologized profusely stating that he made a very bad mistake. I told him that I would seriously consider it because he made me feel bad about his situation.

 

But you can imagine my surprise this morning when I came on two of the forums to only find that they don't exist any more. I think he directly made a request to the administrators here to have it removed and was successful.

 

Unfortunately, CGArchitect has spam control and won't allow me to post links unless I'm a regular visitor with 10 posts.

 

If you have a moment, please check out the post over at the Chaos Group/Vray Forum. If someone would be kind enough to link that, it would be appreciated.

[FlytE]

Sorry mate, I couldnt find it

 

Perhaps they will help you out here. Theft of work is a big no no and in violation of the forums code of conduct.

[Jeff Mottle]

Hi Charles,

 

As discussed by email between you and I, the original thread was moved offline as it was taking a turn for the worse. The offending user was also banned from these forums.

[shaneis]

That seems fair and fitting. He broke the trust of his industry peers and has been banished accordingly.

 

[Charles Leo]

Well apparently, the same post was deleted from two other forums as well. It seems he made some effort to contact all of the admins.

 

Unfortunately I was busy last night and didn't get a chance to read everyone's response. I wish I could have understood what went on after I wrote.

 

I do think he is sincere to a degree - most people in other countries probably wouldn't care one way or another or would just laugh us off. Anyways, I don't think it will happen again. I need to move on.

 

I just replied to one email and I thought it would be fitting to post a portion of it:

 

The person has called me about 10x today including additional phone calls on my cell. He has also written twice day and keeps on apologizing profusely telling me that his reputation and career is damaged. He may very well be sincere.

 

I also think he has written Evermotion AND Chaos Group who I've been a member for well over 5 years now. All three posts were removed. My thoughts is that he has gotten to them either through manipulation or through sincerity. With well over 3,000 posts on Chaos Group/Vray forum, I have never once had a posted deleted up until now so it's quite 'mind boggling.'

 

Anyways, that's all I can really say. I think it's wrong but it is their forum. If they think he has changed his ways or learned a lesson then so be it. I am willing to forgive but my trust is broken.

 

Check out this forum post of mine:

 

(link to the general section of the Chaos forum which I can't post due to spam control)

 

Anyways, have a good night. The world will be a different place come tomorrow.

 

-Charles

[Justin Hunt]

Whilst I feel for your situation, I for one am fast loosing sympathy for you.

 

Why cant you consider this as dealt with, or if you can take it off-line. Not all dirty laundry needs to be aired in a public forum.

 

jhv

[shaneis]

Here here! He has been judged by his peers, banned from the forum and is most certainly regretting his actions.

 

Learn from the experience and watermark your on-line images.

[kippu]

that is a bit odd for the threads to go amiss... last time i posted some proof about stealing of images by some other person ,, i got banned in that network .....i am sure jeff and the others had some valid reason to pull the plug

[Jim Mann]

Whilst I feel for your situation, I for one am fast loosing sympathy for you.

 

Why cant you consider this as dealt with, or if you can take it off-line. Not all dirty laundry needs to be aired in a public forum.

 

jhv

 

I disagree, ownership of your own work is pretty fundamental and the morals and consequences of plagiarismn need to be discussed both in regard to the damage caused to the individual whose work is stolen and to the loathing the community reserves for a plagiarist. Wasn't this at the root of why we all raged about the Orphan Works Bill? The message a forum like this needs to get across is:

 

a) It is wrong

b) It causes damage

c) We as an industry won't tolerate it

d) We will support peers who have their work stolen

e) Plagiarists will be sent to Coventry

 

At least the original thread left you in no doubt as to why you really wouldn't want to consider stealing someones work. That said, I don't know the way the intensity of the debate must have escalated after I last read a post in it because its gone now but it must have been pretty impressive for Jeff to pull the whole thread as he was supportive in the second reply. Perhaps if we had just removed all reference to the name of person involved that would have solved it, although that probably wouldn't have helped in this case as he had written his own name all over the images he pinched. Luckily I have a way of rememebring the name and so can avoid e-mails etc from this character in the future.

 

JM

Edited November 5, 2008 by Jim Mann

[Neil_cg]

Whilst I feel for your situation, I for one am fast loosing sympathy for you.

 

Why cant you consider this as dealt with, or if you can take it off-line. Not all dirty laundry needs to be aired in a public forum.

 

jhv

 

So if that guy refuses to stop using his images to get work, even though they were not produced by him, what is he supposed to do? Let him carry on until he can find/afford someone to send an official cease and desist/get the law involved? Thats months of time, and a serious amount of effort. You shouldnt be put in that situation because of someone elses 'mistake'.

[Nic H]

he stole your images

punish him

end of story

 

its pretty weak / scared / namby pamby to have these kind of threads deleted, it serves as a warning - dont steal images, your reputation will get damaged.

 

whats his username?

Edited November 5, 2008 by nicnic

[Jeff Mottle]

I just thought I would chime in again here. I am 100% against stealing other's work and do see some merit to having their names exposed here on the forums when it happens, however the discussion has to remain professional. The original thread was turning into a witch hunt which based on many other threads on this forum would have gone downhill quickly. It also included names and watermarks of people/companies who were not involved and by association could have had their own reputations tarnished. Thus it was removed.

 

That thread is now alive again here, but the level of discussion so far has been positive and professional. If that continues I see no reason to remove this thread.

 

While I don't agree with that this guy did, I have to admit, I've not seen anyone to date (and I've seen a lot of this) who has been so apologetic for his actions. I think the guy has learned his lesson and is unlikely to repeat his mistake again, so it could also be argues that the thread be removed on that merit, although that was not why it was removed.

 

A few months ago I received a complaint from one of the companies who posted on our job board. They emailed to let me know that an applicant had applied for a job with other's images in his portfolio. Images they recognized as belonging to other companies and people. After I confirmed with those artists that there had not been any sort of partnership with the job applicant, I called him to let him know that I knew. Keep in mind the time between him applying and and me calling was less than an hour. Originally he hung up on me, likely shocked that he had been found out so quickly. I called him back and left him a voice mail to let him know he had two options. Either email all of the people he had applied to and let them know what he had done or I would post to the forums and let the whole industry know what he did. A few minutes later he did call and in the end he did email all of those employers (about 5 or 6 if I recall) to apologize and explain what he did. Like the original offender that started this thread, I seriously doubt he will do that again either. The individuals who work was "borrowed" were not interested in seeing him exposed if he did apologize so that was what happened. Those who know me more personally know I'm usually not one for leniency in cases like this, but I do see some merit to giving people a second chance if the conditions are right.

 

In any case, just keep the discussion on topic and professional and feel free to post any other offending artists here as long as you know the following:

 

1. You know 100% that the images were stolen. i.e. The images were yours or you have personally contacted the original artists to confirm there was no partnership.

 

2. You are careful not to include names of other people or companies who are not involved with the incident.

 

The latter is very important. Consider this scenario. Visualization Company XYZ's images were stolen and posted to this thread and their name included in this thread. If you read the entire thread then you understand the connection, but realize that these forums are heavily indexed on many search engines. If a potential client of company XYZ decided to google their name, there is a very good chance they are going to find a search title named something incriminating now associated with a reputable company's name. This can lead to that company potentially loosing work and their reputation and exposing me to lawsuits for damages.

[Charles Leo]

Very well written Jeff - thank you for the more in-depth explanation. I thought it's very well thought out and commendable. You also looked out for the industry going beyond what most people would do. I would have never thought to request all his emails. I could imagine the embarrassment he had went through was enough of a punishment. I doubt he would have ever do that again.

 

As for the person who offended me, I suppose you could only really tell how embarrassed or bad he felt if I posted a voice recording of all the phone calls and emails I received from the individual afterwards. You were not in my shoes to witness this. But again, this (punishment and forgiveness) is a relative issue each one of us might make differently. I chose not to post any further correspondence out of respect for CGarchitect's decisions.

 

When I made my original post, I posted the email addressed to me in its entirety without editing. He did include one name (which later he said over the phone is a friend and now has nothing to do with this) - a link to someone else's portfolio. Whomever he decided to drag down with him was to be frank, initially was none of my concern and I wasn't about to waste any more time investigating. Regardless if that other person was involved, I thought he also had the right to know what was transpiring - that someone was using his name as a partner.

 

But ultimately this is the decision of CGArchitect - and they have every right to control what transpires in these forums. Sometimes our posts go way off-topic and needs to be moderated to keep things on track. As I stated before, I did not know how the thread 'deteriorated' as I was busy for the rest of the day doing other things. I assume CGArchitect made the proper decision. In this post, all I intended was to ask why and make it known to the offender that he couldn't get away with further manipulation.

 

As a side-note, I just talked with Chaosgroup and they mentioned that my post over there was deleted because someone (I have no idea who it was) asked for their name to be removed. Instead of editing it, the support personnel deleted the whole post including fellow member's responses. I wish in this situation, someone from all of the three forums would have contacted me as I really didn't think I did anything offensive or unusual. My only intentions were to protect others and also to make it known to this person that he can't get away with scamming people.

 

As members, we have the privilege to use these great forums as learning and communication tools. But you must also remember, it is only a 'privilege' and not a 'right.' I thank Jeff for the privilege to be able to use this forum.

[Frosty]

I wish in this situation, someone from all of the three forums would have contacted me as I really didn't think I did anything offensive or unusual. My only intentions were to protect others and also to make it known to this person that he can't get away with scamming people.

 

A number people put a great number of hours into moderating a facilitating these boards. I'm sure you are aware of that. I understand your request to be informed of the removal of the thread and it is common practice to do that. It must have simply been an over site. Many threads get moved/moderated/deleted everyday and sometimes things fall through the cracks.

 

Your stated intention to protect yourself and others is what has made this an interesting discussion.

[Justin Hunt]

I for one wish to apologies for sounding uncaring for your situation.

 

I too felt that the offender had tried to do the right thing by setting things right. However by resurrecting the thread, I too was concerned that it would quickly turn into a "Tit for Tat, oh woe is me" discussion.

 

I was trying to suggest that if you still feel wronged and that justice was not paid, then pursue action off-line, where you have more control as to who is involved.

 

I fully support Jeff's actions and his responses.

 

jhv

[Ky Lane]

As a side note, isnt it nice to see our community sticking up for one another as professionals? While the internet makes it easier for people to just claim others work, it also exposes them to a much wider audience; often including the original owner and his close peers.

 

So, heres to CGA, and all the people who make it a community.

[dean@pikcells]

this thread, and the previous one, makes me wonder how much of a wide spread problem this is.

and is there ever a 100% fool proof way of knowing if the images are the candidates own work?

[Jim Mann]

One interesting thing coming out of all of this are the actual effects on the individuals involved. If someone goes around trying to pass of your work as their own then there is a very real chance that eventually, potential clients might start to think it is you that is trying to do the passing off and that you are the deceitful party.

 

ts quite a tight industry that we work in which makes for a very small world; perfect ingredients for incidents like this to turn into a complete mess in no time at all.

 

Jim

[Charles Leo]

The whole situation makes an interesting statement - I think in today's world of the Internet, people do not hesitate to download MP3s or copy images. It has become very commonplace and it would be ignorant to state otherwise. However, I am not attempting to justify their behavior.

 

If you could only see the amount of backlinks I get from forums - people linking their avatars back to my website. While technically speaking, they are using copyrighted materials, the Internet is nearly impossible to police. Plus, I really can't see the harm in using some of my images as forum avatars. That presents a very low-threat. I can look at it one of two ways - either they are stealing my website bandwidth and not giving me any credit, or I can be flattered that they thought highly enough of my work in the first place.

 

But as for passing off someone else's work as your own - that crosses the line. It does create a level of distrust and an added level of caution that should always be present in our industry as well as other fields of art - but until technology gets to a point where it can determine (or police) emails and the Internet to recognize duplicated images (which in itself presents Draconian privacy issues), all we can do is discuss these issues and look out for one another.

 

While one can pursue legal channels, things are made drastically more complicated by numerous factors. There's the language barrier for one. Secondly, the legal costs which are often prohibitive. Thirdly, even if you did 'sue', how much could you really 'gain'? Fourth, navigating through foreign countries legal channels must be a complete maze full of red-tape and bureaucracy. Fifth, is it worth your time. Sixth, if you're socially conscientious - pursuing someone could lead to harsh punishment in other countries - as much as I think people should 'pay a price', I also wouldn't want to see them suffer inhumane conditions in some other countries prisons (assuming it gets down to that.)

 

In my opinion, it's so much easier and possibly more effective just to make a forum post...

[Justin Hunt]

Oh, I totally agree with you, in what they are doing is theft. I think where you went wrong though was by posting the whole email, including people's names. Who then have become "Guilty by Association" , regardless if they are the victim or perpetrator.

 

As Jeff said, most people don't read the whole thread, especially when it is are very long. By glancing over they can completely misread and misunderstand what is being said.

 

Did you contact the other people involved before posting? What if they, for what ever reason, did not want to pursue a public forum discussion?

 

It's one thing to discuss a problem , but it has to be controlled, professional. Unfortunately these can get out of control very quickly, and have to be brought back under control by the forum leaders.

 

With the original discussion getting out of control it became a Kangaroo Court, which is dangerous

 

jhv

[Nic H]

very diplomatic justin

[quizzy]

if you want to find images of yours, you can always go to http://tineye.com and maybe that will give you some results.. they only have 1.x billion images on file.. but you never know