Taking FormZ to the next level

[d-rockZ]

So I am probably beating this horse to death By asking this.... but I'll ask anyways. I originally thought that I was generating some pretty good renderings out of FormZ with real world time restraints. However, after being introduced to this forum I feel like a 2nd grader who's finally comfortable using a Crayola Crayon. The stuff being produced in this community is ridiculously good. Alright so on with my question...

 

I think that I am comfortable enough with formZ for modeling. But when it comes to rendering I need something more. It seems as though a popular software mentioned often is Cinema 4D and Vray. However, it seems as though if I were go to export all my modeling into C4D then why just not use that as a 3D modeler. (And also, how is the model altered when its transfered between the two). I just feel that it would be a waste of all that I've learned in Formz for the past 3 years. It looks as though Maxwell does impressive work. But I don't know how hard the learning curve is. Or how time effective the rendering quality is. Will I get the same results as other packages?

 

I know this a fully loaded question. But I really want to be successful in Architectural Visualization. And I feel like I'm going down the wrong path as compared to the rest of the industry.

 

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers, Derek

[Claudio Branch]

 

I feel like a 2nd grader who's finally comfortable using a Crayola Crayon.

 

I just feel that it would be a waste of all that I've learned in Formz for the past 3 years.

 

I feel like I'm going down the wrong path as compared to the rest of the industry.

 

 

FEELINGS are a poor indicator of reality...

 

I am certain that you are probably just being too hard on yourself and perhaps making the mistake of comparing your novice render skills to those of the best in this forum. Keep swinging the hammer!

 

3 years of 3D modeling in ANY program is usually referred to as EXPERIENCE Bro! You're still a modeler aren't you?

 

Blaze your own path. Not everyone in this industry is experiencing success.

[sirio]

I use formz only for architectural modeling, then i export (dxf) in cinema 4d. in c4d I model some interior furniture like sofa, curtains, etc. then i render in vrayforc4d. This is for me a very fast and complete workflow

[BillyElNino]

We use Cinema 4D with VRay but we also don't use it to model. The bones are always done in SketchUp and more complex procedures and final bits / alterations done in Cinema 4D. If you've got your FormZ modelling experience it will be perfect for a similar workflow. FormZ is able to undertake more complicated modelling than SketchUp so there will be less to do in Cinema at the other end.

 

I hate FormZ but this is only because I don't know how to use it properly and have never taken the time to properly evaluate it. One big plus over SketchUp as a modeller: You can see the text in DWGs so no **** ups on materials chosen by the Architect!

[leed]

Derek.

 

I used form Z for 6 years.. and still do a bit... But I moved over to c4d... not intentionally, just gradually as I became more aquatinted with it... There are lots of people using a Z - C4d - Vray pip-line.. and it works fine... Vray is a great renderer and C4d' AR is a good renderer too...

 

My advice would be.. if you can afford it, invest in C4D and vray... but keep using Z for modelling... It is a great modeller... more Cad based than C4d which is a much freer app, and i got used to it very quickly.... Z seemed always to be 2 clicks away, where C4d seemed one click... but it is what suits you.... but rendering.... Vray 1st... C4d-AR 2nd..

 

Good luck

 

Lee

[d-rockZ]

Ha... Claurio, I guess I did sound a little doom-and-gloom in my post. I guess the key thing is I don't want to be handicapped in my progress by using formZ when there is other software in the industry that is of better quality and efficiency.

 

Thanks everyone for your feedback, Derek

[Frosty]

What number vote am I for Z to C4D? Its been my work flow since 1998 with FormZ 2.9 and C4D 5.2 - NEVER had an issue whit export/import.

 

I also follow a similar path as others by building the geometry in Z that it is suited to. And other details or duplicated instances I then create in C4D.

 

I suggest you download the demo from Maxon and give it a whirl. Its save enabled for like 40 days. Just remember to segregate your FormZ geometry onto many layers.

[Frosty]

I am certain that you are probably just being too hard on yourself and perhaps making the mistake of comparing your novice render skills to those of the best in this forum. Keep swinging the hammer!

 

3 years of 3D modeling in ANY program is usually referred to as EXPERIENCE Bro! You're still a modeler aren't you?

 

I agree completely. Once you understand the basics of 3D, moving to another app is easier. Additionally, the skill set of any of the top visualizers on this board took a lot longer than three years to establish. Now that you've found us, you'll be shocked at how quickly you advance

[d-rockZ]

I'm looking into the costs of C4D R11. Looks like core is slightly under $1000. Which is great. But then they offer the Architecture Edition which jumps in price to around $2,500.

 

But if I really am doing all my modeling in FormZ, do I really need anything else other than the base version?

 

And do I really need Advance Render if I am going to use VRAY?

 

Your thoughts?

[Claudio Branch]

I like to give pep talks from time to time.....

 

Post up your work as you finish projects and comment on others' work.

 

There are alot of talented, patient and generous individuals on CGA who can help you get to where you want to go.

[mattclinch]

if you are considering switching to a less bottle-necking software, then i would consider something a bit more industry standard than C4D - although popular i would say 3ds MAX + VRay/MR is a much more mainstream pipeline for this kind of work. MAX is also an intuative modelling package and has MR built in which is an extremely powerful renderer.

[BillyElNino]

if you are considering switching to a less bottle-necking software, then i would consider something a bit more industry standard than C4D

 

BOOOOO...

 

You're posting in a FormZ thread, the man obviously thinks outside the box!

 

On a serious(er) note I don't think this has great relevance. C4D does everything and more (opinion not fact!) and also has enough of a following to allow for continued support and user resources. Its also cheaper by quite a margin.

 

Who wants to live in a world where everyone wakes up and plugs into Max and VRay?

[Frosty]

A small pro/con list of Max/C4D. I'm not trying to be a salesman, just posting some thoughts on deciding between the two.

 

C4D Pros:

Price, modules, cross platform, stability, Sketch and Toon, interface (my opinion)

C4D Cons:

Smaller user base, fewer plugins.

 

Max Pros:

Large user base, most plugins, more access models/materials, more access to learning materials

Max Cons:

Price, Windows only, interface (my opinion)

 

With that said, I have always disliked "its the industry standard" or "everyone else uses it". Use the software you find easiest to achieve your desired product. That may be Max, it may be C4D, it might even be a crayon. Download the demos you are interested in and try them out, ask questions here and decide for yourself.

[mattclinch]

cost wise, C4D is around 1500 euros, and VRay is 775 euros = 2275 euros.

max 2009 design retails at 2495 euros i think, so the price aspect is not really a factor.

 

this is an age old arguement, but with the current rate of Autodesk 'acquisitions' and the fact that Derek is clearly frustrated with using a non-frontrunner software i thought it best to play devils advocate and suggest the industry leading bit of kit.

 

you C4D fanboys! don't worry, Autodesk will have you next!

[STRAT]

having spent my entire working career using max and cinema 50/50, i know which way i'd go

[BillyElNino]

industry leading bit of kit

 

Your confusing this with most popular.

 

I'll fall on my scale rule before I let AutoDesk take me!

[leed]

If you use a Mac then it is a no-brain'r.... cost wise there is about 600 in it.

[Bwana Kahawa]

Maybe a bit late to stick my thoughts in, but I've been using Form Z for about 5 years and Maxwell since it was in Beta (some would say it still is! ) and they do the job just fine for me.

 

True, I've never known any different, so it might not be the most effective solution, and yes, render times can be a bit of a drag, but I'm happy with the results I can get out of the combo. And dunno what all the costs add up to, but I'm guessing a copy of Maxwell would be cheaper than investing in C4D and Vray... Only one new bit of software to learn too.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to leave FormZ though - once you get the hang of it, it's a superb modeller.

[Frosty]

the fact that Derek is clearly frustrated with using a non-frontrunner software i thought it best to play devils advocate and suggest the industry leading bit of kit.

 

I think you're confusing his frustration with rendering in FormZ with a desire to use whatever happens to be the most popular option. I don't think any FormZ user here will compliment its rendering abilities. I do appreciate you "playing devil's advocate". Its needed, but please let it amount to a reasoned discussion other than "everyone uses it". Arguing price/features/compatibility/stability/platform/licensing are are valid concerns in this debate.

 

It is an age old argument and one that every person must (re)evaluate for themselves. Downloading the demos and test driving all the options is the only way to accomplish this.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Is Maxwell fast enough yet to be considered a production render engine? To me a production engine needs to be able to crank out 3000 pixel wide, complex image in a handful of hours. I haven't heard from the Maxwell crowd recently, so I doubt the speed has improved dramatically, and therefore I wouldn't recommend going that route. The amount of time it takes to render a quality image should be one of the main reasons for choosing one render engine over another.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[cadmunkey]

..x 2009 design retails at 2495 euros i think, so the price aspect is not really a factor.

Matt where can I get it at this price, the quotes I'm getting are around the £2500 mark. Autodesk product pricing in the UK is crazy!

[e[dub]]

sorry to hijack this thread, but since so many people here use a formZ>C4D pipeline, could you please explain your export/import settings? I've been struggling with figuring out the best options, but have been using DXF lately. The main problem seems to be that the normals are always inverted (even if selecting "inverse faces" in FormZ or "align normals" in C4D import settings.

 

I'm making a new thread about this - please click here:http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/33338-formz-c4d-pipeline-import-export-settings.html#post231169

Edited November 7, 2008 by e[dub]

[Frosty]

Cinema + AR = $1600.

That is a base option that is fully functional for Arch Viz.

 

The base version of Max with Metal Ray will be much more expensive but will have many more features - cloth, dynamics, advanced particles, bi-peds etc. It will be easily double the price, though I couldn't dig up an exact number.

[mattclinch]

I think you're confusing his frustration with rendering in FormZ with a desire to use whatever happens to be the most popular option. I don't think any FormZ user here will compliment its rendering abilities. I do appreciate you "playing devil's advocate". Its needed, but please let it amount to a reasoned discussion other than "everyone uses it". Arguing price/features/compatibility/stability/platform/licensing are are valid concerns in this debate.

 

 

Point taken, his post does indicate it is the rendering limitations of the software and not that it is not supported/popular enough or limited in other areas. I grabbed the wrong end of the stick.

 

As far as the reasoned discussion - I think "everyone uses it" ('majority' is more accurate) can be a valid arguement for the strength of the software when you look at how people choose software - the industry is fairly fickle in its selection of software - whatever does the job the best is usually the tool of choice excluding any brand loyalty, and with software not exactly cheap it is an important choice to make.

 

Taking personal opinion and preference out of the equation you would have to reason that for Autodesk to have commanded such a large industry usage - the 2006 inudstry survey (http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/26844-2006-industry-survey.html) highlights MAX as having a 69.7% industry usage, AutoCAD at 50.4% and VIZ at 22.4% with C4D at only 7.6%) - a large amount of this would have to be down to the desirabilty factors you mention - support, features, compatibilty, stability etc.

 

This large market share naturally leads to a large amount of resources for anyone learning the software - something I think is imperative to someone like Derek who is considering switching software and learning it from the ground up - although fairness for fairness' sake - C4D has a plethora of resources available too.

 

As you point out though, it is something for each individual to assess and I was never entertaining that Derek select any software based solely on someones suggestion.

Edited November 7, 2008 by mattclinch

[mattclinch]

Matt where can I get it at this price, the quotes I'm getting are around the £2500 mark. Autodesk product pricing in the UK is crazy!

 

I converted all RRP prices to Euros due to the extreme difference in prices in US and UK. RRP for Max 2009 Design is apparently US$3,495 which is actually closer to 2725 Euros. Apologies for the mistake - as you point out though, in the UK you will struggle to get it for the RRP and are more likely to pay closer to 2500+ for a commercial license from a UK reseller.