Archy@NJIT Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm a a student who is looking for work in the CG community. I have experience with 3DStudio 3,4,5 and 3D VIZ 3,4. I have a year left till graduation, and I'm wondering what rang of hourly wages i should expect for a CG Architure position? The firm i'm in communication with likes my work alot, and i'm wondering how much i will be compensated? i'm on the east cost of the us. if anyone can even reply with a ballpark figure asap, i'll be very greatful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego Rosales Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 This is a very relative question that has been asked here many times. It really depends on your particular situation, what is the profit you're expecting, etc. First, the best would be to take a look at the excellent columns by David Wright. They're worth their word count in kilos of gold. Really. It is almost impossible to find a reasonable hourly figure before analyzing your own situation. And that can be done only by you. It will take some time and experience until you get to your real "price". Also, I would take a look at the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook, that's a very good place to start. Lastly, expecting an answer for this "ASAP" is an unrealistic position. It takes some time and number crunching, but eventually you will get to it. Best, /Diego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
id_ivan Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Spare some time to search in this forum, you'll find an answer similar to your question. I remember have read it but i can't find where. just surf in buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 It sounds like he is looking for a salary figure - not a freelance figure. Check with your local AIA office. They have all statistics for positions within architecture firms. You will most likely be classified as a graduate architect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 CG Architure position!!! hO, ho, ho,don't make laugh! Chances are very scarce:in the best case you'll be doing some 3d very rarely;let's say a 0.2% of your time. The rest you 'll be drafting windows schedules and alike! Welcome to the real world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunDon Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Are you kidding, dude? I work for a small (150 person) architectural design firm in New Hampshire, and we have three full time 3D visualization artists, including myself. I'm the junior guy on the staff so I couldn't tell you what expected salary is, but I can definitely say that if a small firm in rural NH has need for three full-time renderers, you'll find work elsewhere... ShaunDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 You might, but it's not all that common. Only the larger firms (150 is not small) have renderers, the small ones rely on the architects and/or outsource. They simply don't have enough need. Personally, I would look for firms that specialize in rendering or computer graphics. Working for an architecture firm you will most likely not get paid well. An architect coming out of grad school can expect about the same salary as a graphic designer coming out of a 4 year degree (the only reason why I left architecture). There are unique cases, though, and if you are good, have a lot of real architecture experience (like you know how to read plans well, materials, etc.) and aren't just a 3D guy, then you may be able to negotiate a better position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 our firm is around 130 people. we employee 2 3d artists (myself included) who do rendering and animation. in theory we could employee about 4 more people and keep them busy. some projects we do 1 rendering and we are done, but more comenly we develope the space through the renderings, and show them to the client every step of the way. i might have 10 versions of the same project. outsourcing would be a huge headache. i think large firms tend to employee renderers more than small firms because of the cost associated, and not because the small firms have no need for renderers. when i worked at a small firm (15 people), i spent about a third of my time modeling and rendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 About 6 years ago, I was hired by a firm of around 50 to do only 3d work and they have kept the position since I left. It is actually quite common in the Midwest to have dedicated 3d staff in AE firms. Just know that if they ask you in the interview, "Can you use 2d AutoCAD?" that it means you will more than likely not be working in 3d 100% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Well, at least you cheered my up a little bit! But that is not the panorama in south Florida,maybe somewhere else is better. Should I take a hike from here? Where to? Help Gulp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunDon Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 mbr -- agreed, I would definitely take a position in a dedicated 3D firm over a 3D position within an architecture firm. Obviously being around as many people who do what you do professionally is a plus, but working for a company that fields work for many different companies or even industries is much preferable to rendering work from the same five architects. Especially if you work for a publicly traded firm -- ouch. Good design tends to go out the window in favor of cranking buildings out at better and better margins. ShaunDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Interesting - I may be in the wrong place as well. But I will shell out my experiances see if it helps anyone: Almost every Architect I have interviewed/talked with is familiar with and is begining to see that they need 3d. Most of the stuff out there being done (firms I have seen in the real world not here) have the worst 3d renderings that could exist. Still I see flyers for 3d "artists" that have work so poor no-one here would look at them. The problem is that most architects have not figured out how to work it in to the work flow. I work full time drawfting & render on the side the architect I work for could have me render all day long its not a matter of not having the work it is a matter of not having the worker to draft for me. I haven't worked less than 50 hours in one week since november and some weeks I work 70. Our office is only 4 people. When I was first playing with max I interviewed at a 3d architect rendering firm. The interview went well until it came to price - I was making $16 per hour drafting and when I told them that the interview was over - they did not want to offer more than $12 and were really looking for $10. Again that was +3 years ago and I wasn't very good at all but I wouldn't think that a renderer would make much more than a drafter. Especially if you are just starting out. But I could be really off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Originally posted by Sawyer: I wasn't very good at all but I wouldn't think that a renderer would make much more than a drafter. Especially if you are just starting out. But I could be really off. egads! ...when i started out i made roughly the same as someone who started off drafting. there is no way you should take less than this. it is hard to judge how valuable you are to the firm, but don't undersell yourself. if someone is showing a client around the firm, they almost always stroll by my work area to show them what we are doing. what other services we might have to offer them beyond drafting. you are a luxury item for an architecture firm to have, but you are also a valuable asset to them. clients expect to have renderings of what there building will look like. ____ misread the post, i thought you said that a drafter should make more than a renderer. ...but i will leave my post intact anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Nelson Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I have a full time job doing about 1/2 drafting & half rendering & graphic work. I probably get paid a little more for being able to do the 3d stuff. BUT, on my side jobs, I charge about 75% more for 3d work than I do regular drafting. And I know for sure that I give very good prices on my work. There was a cg firm here in the valley that actually listed prices along with hours on their web site for a while. On average it seemed like they made about $90/hour on a job. Since then they have removed those prices from their site, because I'm sure they have raised their fees even higher now that they have landed some big jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 In the architecture business realm, drafting is generally more profitable for them so it would stand to reason that the billable rate is higher. In my experience, if the principals cannot do the task themselves, they place little value on it. After all, if they can't do it, how valuable could it really be? As our generation moves up in the ranks, that view is changing. Archkre: Oh, BTW, I am currently in Missouri so it would be a bit more than a hike. The Florida location will not be effective for another week.... The Midwest is actually picking up quite a bit on the 3D side. Chicago firms are becoming more sophisticated in their presentations and Kansas City has some great firms if you are into sports facilities or healthcare. If you prefer smaller firms, those that deal with religious structures are doing well and this is in the bible belt after all. [ July 04, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: John Dollus ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archkre Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 John :I can't understand what you meant in: "The Florida location will not be effective for another week" Could you explain that a little bit please? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 Originally posted by John Dollus: In the architecture business realm, drafting is generally more profitable for them so it would stand to reason that the billable rate is higher. In my experience, if the principals cannot do the task themselves, they place little value on it. After all, if they can't do it, how valuable could it really be? As our generation moves up in the ranks, that view is changing. i think this is subjective. i can't remember the exact number, but i would be really surprised if my hourly billable rate was lower than drafting work. not trying to sound condescending to any drafters out there. i don't think the line can really be drawn that clean. is arch visualization saving time during the design process, or is it adding time to it. does allowing the client to see exactly what he is going to get create more of a burden on the design process? does he keep wanting changes, creating lost profitability on a project. or does allowing the client to see exactly what he is going to get make the sign off process smoother and faster, making the firm money? ...how does the design architect react to seeing renderings of the building? ...does he want to change the design now, which he might otherwise leave alone? i don't think these questions can really be answered, so it is hard to say whether you are more or less of a value to a firm than a draftsperson when talking about productivity and profitability. i worked on a project recently where the contractor had a copy of my rendering on the job site, referencing it while looking at the plans, and telling the construction workers how to build something. if i remember tomorrow, i will post the rendeirng, and a photo of the finished building. you could also through into the mix that making the client happy by showing him what the building is going to look like before he sign off is good for repeat business. i guess this is only true if the building turns out looking like the rendering. not to mention you can then sell him the images to use for fundraising efforts, ect.. were i am going with this is that the effect of arch visualization on the arch industry runs a lot deeper than people may realize. Originally posted by John Dollus: The Midwest is actually picking up quite a bit on the 3D side. Chicago firms are becoming more sophisticated in their presentations and Kansas City has some great firms if you are into sports facilities or healthcare. If you prefer smaller firms, those that deal with religious structures are doing well and this is in the bible belt after all. the arch firm i work for specializes in children's hospitals and we are insanely busy right now. we had a bad quarter over a year ago, but it was not because the projects were not there, we just in a dry spell on landing them. according to the medical industry everyone has some disease, injured in some way, or just needs to go in for a medical screening. ...not even mentioning all of the medications that are being prescribed to people. the medical business is still booming. it is not an easy industry to break into though. hospitals highly value your experience in the field. they want to see how efficiently your ideas function in real use. it is a life or death matter. whether the design is sexy or not comes in second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 6, 2003 Share Posted July 6, 2003 ArchKre: I recently accepted a position in the Tampa area and will be moving in one week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Hi Guys.... i'm a student too... will have my Architecture diploma in 2 years, and i work as a FULL TIME 3d modeler (nearly no renders)in an architecture agency. If want to push the geometry limits out of their boundaries you have to have conscience of the need of the cg conception... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 I recently accepted a position in the Tampa area and will be moving in one week. Can you tell us more about your new job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunDon Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 As far as the need for 3D computer visualization, I can tell you that at the company I work for we couldn't survive without it today. We build small to medium sized bank branches all over the country, and our sales people can't sit down with the boards they go before without our renderings -- they simply expect a CG photo montage, and these clients many times lack any imagination, so every detail needs to be accurately represented. And show them a walkthrough of their proposed bank design, and they flip -- it's labor intensive, but we've nailed many big clients by walking in with an animation on DVD. And definitely our department is the cornerstone of any company tour -- clients and investors love to know, or at least think, that this company is working on the cutting edge... and we're definitely the most impressive department in that respect. As far as pay, so far as I'm aware I'm making more than a lot of drafters. The profits may be higher in doing CAD work, I'm not sure, but the necessity of renderings for our clients is solid and there simply aren't nearly as many qualified 3D artists as there are CAD engineers, so I can demand more. And as a college student I still feel as though I'm underbidding myself compared to the people I work with simply because I need the work. I obviously don't have the architectural background (though my father is an architect and I've grown up with blueprints on the kitchen table), but I'm probably twice as fast at modeling as the experienced crew here which makes up for it. I'm moving to Brooklyn next month and through my company here in New Hampshire I've partnered with several design and architectural firms in Manhattan. Many of them are just now waking up to the possibilities of 3D, having seen mostly hack work up until this point, and they were very impressed with the work I did on our projects. I've been told to look them up for work when I'm in the city. So from where I'm sitting, the prospects for career work in architectural visualization are fantastic. Funny thing is I'm paying through the nose to go to school so I can get out of it. *grin* ShaunDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 >>i think this is subjective. i can't remember the exact number, but i would be really surprised if my hourly billable rate was lower than drafting work. not trying to sound condescending to any drafters out there. Oops, what I meant to say is that the billings are higher, not the billable rate. >>i don't think the line can really be drawn that clean. is arch visualization saving time during the design process, or is it adding time to it. Kinda depends on who is doing the visualization Earnest, see my new post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 I'm moving to Brooklyn next month and through my company here in New Hampshire I've partnered with several design and architectural firms in Manhattan.Do you know what part of Brooklyn you are going to be moving to? I lived there for 16 years, so if you have any questions just email me. There are a lot of renderers in Brooklyn, one less now that I've left, but you are kind enough to replace me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaunDon Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Thanks man, that's uber-kind of you. I'm actually moving in with someone already living there, probably in Bay Ridge, and I'm transfering as a junior to Pratt's computer graphics and interactive media department. I'm wicked excited, hopefully there won't be any major surprises. ShaunDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted July 7, 2003 Share Posted July 7, 2003 Bay Ridge is a long train ride from Manhattan. I'm not sure if the part of Pratt you will be studying with is in their Brooklyn campus or the new Manhattan one. Neither is close, but you get a lot of reading time on the R train. A CG renderer friend of mine's wife teaches at Pratt--art history, I think. Oh, and you will need to leave the 'wicked' expression in New England. Brooklyn is another world. (I'm kidding). But still email me for more NY connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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