Upgrade - Dual Xeon or i7 ??

[Jez(UK)]

Hi there,

 

In a 'previous' life I used to do 3D Studio visuals (as a Freelancer).

 

I'm currently contemplating getting back into it, but not in such an 'intense' way as before.

 

I intend upgrading a lot of my software, and that means I'll be running;

 

CS4 After Effects, Premiere, Photoshop and Illustrator,

AutoCAD LT 2009 (maybe full AutoCAD).

3D Studio Design 2009 (MAYBE).

 

I've always used Dual Xeons in the past, but recently a friend suggested looking at i7 machines.

 

That same friend convinced me to go SAS and I have invested in a 300gb one and will purchase a few 1TB SAS drives to make a RAID5 for VIDEO etc.

 

If I go i7, I'm looking at the SAS controller built in.

 

If I go Dual Xeon, I'm looking at buying a SAS card.

 

I do NOT want a tempermental machine - I am not into overclocking.

 

Must be a stable workstation.

 

The ONLY parts I'm looking to salvage from my current machine are the Graphics Card (PNY FX4600 768mb) and the PSU (Enermax Galaxy 1000w) and the Case.

 

I'll have a 300gb SAS Fujitsu Hard Drive to use as a dedicated OS / Software ONLY drive (will probably partition it into 2 - one for XP Pro and one for Vista 64 bit).

 

Xeon I'm looking at is the Supermicro X7DWA-N, the i7 is the Supermicro X8ST3-F.

 

I guess I'd be looking at Vista 64 Business (or is Ultimate worth it ??)

 

Please, I've come on here because I'm sure you guys can point me in the right direction.

 

I'd really like some ideas/advice.

 

P.S. My purchase has to be VERY SOON (like, I won't be able to wait 3 months, UNLESS I GO THE DUAL XEON ROUTE, in which case I would buy a controller card and stick that into my current machine)

 

P.P.S. I have no real budget restrictions, but don't want to pay silly money if I don't have to.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jez.

[AJLynn]

Why the SAS? It's not that big an advantage - with SATA the limiting factor is generally the drive, not the interface, and I bet an SATA hard dive is cheaper than an SAS controller card. But anyway. You need to decide based on priority of three factors:

 

-The performance of single threaded apps

-The performance of multi threaded apps

-Cost

 

The dual Xeon will render a bit faster (depending on which you get) in any renderer with very good multithreading such as Vray or mental ray. One core on the i7 will be faster than one core on the Xeon so it will run anything single threaded (the Max interface, most operations in the Adobe software) faster.

[Jez(UK)]

Thanks for your reply - its much appreciated,

 

From what you are saying it sounds like the i7 could be the way to go.

 

Not sure I agree with you though re SAS - they are not expensive for nothing !

 

Peace,

 

Jez

[ihabkal]

I also think i7 will be better for you, but it would be wise to have a pro assemble it for you and test it out for stability. I have had nothing but trouble in assembling machines by myself.

[Jez(UK)]

Thanks for that advice.

 

I have built at least 6 or so machines, not frightened to.

 

Funnily all the Xeons I've ever built have been no problem (apart from a 2nd hand Tyan board I once bought off eBay), but the ONE high spec single processor computer I built for a friend turned out to be a disaster.

 

It was built on a 680i (BFG ?) motherboard and it has been nothing but trouble - in fact it doesn't work right to this day.

 

So I'm kinda reluctant to buy these high-spec overclocker's type machine - BUT will go for such a machine when the Motherboard is a Supermicro (like I said, the X8ST3-F. Haven't read a review on it yet though (as I've only just found out about it - may turn out not to tick all the boxes).

 

Regards,

 

Jez

[Tommy L]

I think you should go with 2 machines, one as a workstation and one as render power.....nothing worse than tying up your workstation when you hit render.

[shaneis]

The ONLY parts I'm looking to salvage from my current machine are the Graphics Card (PNY FX4600 768mb) and the PSU (Enermax Galaxy 1000w) and the Case...

 

Don't forget your optical drives and card readers (if any).

 

...will probably partition it into 2 - one for XP Pro and one for Vista 64 bit...

 

Better to go with XP Pro and XP64 instead of Vista.

 

I guess I'd be looking at Vista 64 Business (or is Ultimate worth it ??)

 

Absolutely not, see above.

 

As for your i7/ Xeon decision, I'd wait for the next Xeon release but that is just my opinion. Alternatively, you could follow TommyL's advice and grab a decent i7 workstation now and buy a Xeon machine in a few months as a dedicated render node - and a very fast one at that.

[Jez(UK)]

Hi there and thanks for that Shaneis.

 

Optical Drive I'd sell as it's IDE, cardreader i'd keep (USB).

 

I've read elsewhere on here that Vista is better for CS4.

 

As I stated previously, I can't wait 3-4months, I need a solution pretty much now. And I'm not looking to buy/have 2 machines. The majority of my work will be;

 

AutoCAD (40%),

After Effects, Premiere, Photoshop, Illustrator, (40%)

3DS Max Design 2009 (20% and even then, maybe).

 

So I'm kind of looking at the scenario; "do I jump the Xeon ship and go i7" or stick with what I know for reliability/stability, i.e. SuperMicro Xeon" ??

 

Regards,

 

Jez

[shaneis]

I've read elsewhere on here that Vista is better for CS4.

 

Ah, yes. That's because of the Open GL support problems with XP64. As far as I know, nVidia had released some new drivers to fix that, worth looking into.

 

As I stated previously, I can't wait 3-4months, I need a solution pretty much now. And I'm not looking to buy/have 2 machines. The majority of my work will be;

 

AutoCAD (40%),

After Effects, Premiere, Photoshop, Illustrator, (40%)

3DS Max Design 2009 (20% and even then, maybe).

 

Well I suppose that you'd benefit from the top-bin i7 (965) then. They seem to cope quite well with video. Considering your usage, I'd check out a few benchmarks for i7's vs. Xeons for After Effects. You'll probably find that for the price/ performance, an i7 will be quite fast but much cheaper than a dual Xeon setup, you could invest in more RAM with the money you save. It's a shame you have to buy now - in 3 months time, it would be a no-brainer for the Xeon's.

 

Best of luck,

 

S.

[Jez(UK)]

"It's a shame you have to buy now - in 3 months time, it would be a no-brainer for the Xeon's."

 

To be honest, I've been there (like a lot of others) chasing the best, waiting 3 months, then wait then for another 3 months there'll be even better..........

[shaneis]

True, very true. My usual advice to people purchasing hardware is "buy what you need/ can afford now then avoid reading all catalogues, newspaper adds, hardware websites, computer stores and so-on for at least six months. They'll only cause misery."

 

It's odd but nowadays when colleagues, friends and family say they need to buy a new PC, I quietly think to myself "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, my condolences."

[Jez(UK)]

Trouble is, I've been really bitten by someone I built a system for.

 

It all came highly recommended (the parts that is) - it was the BEST build I'd ever done (physically) - and it's been an absolute pig in terms of reliability/stability.

 

However, my 2 old Dual Xeons (1 is 5years old, the other is a 3 year old machine) just work and work - and they wonder why (and so do I because it's all I've ever had).

 

So, I'm 'tempted' by these i7's because I'm not really going to be doing much 3D work (if any) AND by the sheer speed, but I'm real worried I'll end up like my friend who went with a very fast single processor machine (I can't even remember what it is 6800?? or something like that) but end up with something real unreliable (something that I've never had to personally experience).

 

I've built my own systems for the last 6 years so I won't hear of buying a ready made system, when I can just put together the same components myself !

 

I must say that I do like this board for an i7 solution;

 

http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Core2Duo/X58/C7X58.cfm

 

But for a Dual Xeon Solution I like this one;

 

http://supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon1333/5400/X7DWA-N.cfm

 

 

Both of the above would need a SAS Controller card so the time you've added a SAS controller card (they're not cheap), AND a BIG assumption being that I'd be able to pick up a pair of cheapish Quad Core procs on eBay for £350 each 3.0ghz, the i7 still ends up £500 cheaper (the i7 with a 940 2.93ghz processor).

 

My ONLY concern - is STABILITY between these 2.

 

Supermicro I have confidence with, but I do NOT relish sweating over whether this i7 machine can work solidly for 12hours a day 365days a year (no Overclocking).

[shaneis]

Well if it's down to stability, who can say? Nehalem hasn't been around as long as Xeon and only time will tell although Nehalem is geared more towards server/ workstation than it is towards desktop - which is good news for you.

 

FYI, here's a quote from Anandtech -

 

"...The Core i7's general purpose performance is solid, you're looking at a 5 - 10% increase in general application performance at the same clock speeds as Penryn. Where Nehalem really succeeds however is in anything involving video encoding or 3D rendering, the performance gains there are easily in the 20 - 40% range. Part of the performance boost here is due to Hyper Threading, but the on-die memory controller and architectural tweaks are just as responsible for driving Intel's performance through the roof."

 

If you are interested, here's an i7 based server build that uses a Supermicro board and also has SAS options...

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Intel-Core-i7-Server,6723.html

 

After reading these articles, it seems that the i7 approach is best.

[Jackal]

This post is right on time. I have an older Dual Xeon system and I was trying to figure out if I should upgrade it or build a new PC with a single chip. The specs of the old machine:

 

Case - Chenbro SR105-68

Mobo: Tiger i7525 (S2672) S2672ANR

Processors: 2 Intel XEON 3.0GHZ 1M 800FSB EM64T mPGA 604

Optical Drive: Samsung 16x Double Layer DVD±RW ATAPI/IDE Drive

Video Card: Matrox Parhelia APVe (non powered)

RAM: Super Talent 2x1GB Registered PC2-3200 DDR2-400 memory with ECC

 

Hard Drives:

System – Maxtor Diamondback Plus 60GB ATA/133 (Old drive)

Storage - 2 Samsung 250GB SATA II 8 MB Buffer

 

Other stuff:

Monitors: 2 - 20” Samsung 204T

CPU Heat Sinks:2 Swiftech MCX604-V

Mouse: Marbleman+ Trackball

Contour Designs ShuttlePRO V.2

Saitek Eclipse

 

I built this a few years ago for the Adobe CS2 package and I have another PC for 3D (w/Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz). I was considering upgrading the mobo with the dual Xeons and using this system for 3D and using the other PC for video once I upgrade it with a better processor. I've also considered building a small 4 node farm based on mATX or ITX boxes. But that can be something for the future once I feel there is a real need for it.

 

I'm just getting back into 3D and plan to go in the direction of Architectural Visualization. But I'm a long ways from any serious projects as I re-learn the software and learn newer packages. I'll be using Lightwave 9, Vue Infinite 5 and maybe a few more packages. Not sure yet.

 

So do you think these Xeons are worth salvaging with a new mobo? Should I use this as a render box and start from scratch?

[AJLynn]

Exactly which Xeon CPUs are they? If they're single core Netburst based Xeons they should be throw out and possibly burned to prevent other people trying to salvage them.

[Jackal]

Exactly which Xeon CPUs are they? If they're single core Netburst based Xeons they should be throw out and possibly burned to prevent other people trying to salvage them.

 

lol! Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)

 

I'm not sure, but they seem to have two cores but I don't remember them being "dual" cores. I'll have to check the little booklet that came with them when I get home. I can't seem to find info on them online.

[AJLynn]

Google search for a program called CPU-Z - it will ID all that. Your statement that "they seem to have two cores but I don't remember them being "dual" cores" makes me think they're Netburst chips with Hyperthreading, in which case the Xeon box and the Conroe box should be about the same speed and almost anything you can buy now is faster. If you replaced it with an i7 box you'd be blown away.

[BOXXLABS]

Here's the bottom line based on my testing and analysis.

 

If you want maximum rendering performance above all else and money is no object, then get dual Xeon 5492's or even a Skulltrail-based system. These will be faster than any i7 -and alot more expensive.

 

If you are looking for the best blend of performance and price (what I like to call "value") then you could look at the following:

 

A system based on i7 965 (4 cores @ 3.2Ghz) is about the same price as a system based on dual Xeon 5420s (8 cores @ 2.5Ghz).

 

As far as raytrace rendering speed goes, a new i7 965 based system is about the same speed as dual Xeon 5420s -maybe slightly faster by a few %. This means 3D rendering is pretty darn good on both platforms.

 

As far as single-threaded performance goes, an i7 965 is WAY faster than dual Xeon 5420s. Faster by as much as 30% in some apps. This means that basic GUI and tool usage (simply clicking around) in your application(s) of choice will definitely "feel" faster on the i7. Also, switching between applications (multitasking) is smoother on the i7.

 

 

If you are the adventurous type who might consider a slight overclock on your new i7 system, you could start with a lower-end i7 cpu such as the 940 or 920 and easilly beat the performance of the stock i7 965 CPU by boosting the speed upwards of 3.8 to 4 Ghz. You need to understand that you can fry your system if you don't know what you are doing.

 

If you are the cautious type who would rather feel secure knwoing that you will have a totally stable system on which to do your work, you should seriously consider investing in a high-quality, pre-built i7-based workstation from a reputable vendor. I know of one or two.

 

 

I hope this helps to put things in to perspective.

 

Adam

BOXXlabs

Edited December 30, 2008 by BOXXLABS

[Jackal]

I believe mine are the Netburst with Hyperthreading. So I guess a new system is in order. Thanks for the help guys.