Urgent :who the 3d model belongs to? client or me ?

[Mike.]

HI

i said the client i call him back in 20 minutes....really this request is a first for me....

 

i'm making an animation and some pics for the client.

first time i face this : he asks me for the 3d model, so he can do things for his website with it.he says the 3d model belongs to him.

i made a bill for images and for an animation, not for a 3d model.

 

I don't know what to say to him.

 

from my point of view, it's obvious that he's wrong.

but perhaps i'm totally wrong.

 

What do you think ?

please help me

Edited February 4, 2009 by Mike.

[smighty]

You´ re right, the client is wrong.

The 3d model belongs to you- if the client wants the whole model he has to pay for that.

 

I would charge about 50-75% of the whole flat sum (flat sum in this case I would just use the stills for pricing, not the whole animation project).

So lets say the stills would be about 8k Euros- charge about 4k to xxx for the model (without textures)---depending on the client....

if the client is faithful you can find a deal----if not charge 100%-

[Mike.]

Thanks very much smighty.

it gives me a much better idea of what kind of deal i can propose to him.

[Tommy L]

The contract you have with the client should state what the deliverables are. Unless the contract states the model as one of the deliverables, you own the model. If you have no contract, you have ask yourself whether you want to work with this client again.....

[Mike.]

thanks Tommy L

 

No, I have no contract. but I made a detailed bill about the work to deliver (given number of images, animation of a given length).

[Scott Erstad]

Remember too that any textures or assets used in the model that you may have purchased you very likely do not have the right to sell.

 

Good luck, this is never a good thing to have happen.

[Antisthenes]

generally i think the model is shared amongst consultants but controlled but the designing architect for coordination purposes.

[Mike.]

Remember too that any textures or assets used in the model that you may have purchased you very likely do not have the right to sell.

 

Good luck, this is never a good thing to have happen.

 

good point

[Horhe]

Im making a model of a porsche, not my design but that doesnt mean that porsche owns the right to my model does it? So like the others said, unless it is not in the contract, it is yours.

[Antisthenes]

i'm going to have to go ahead and doubt you are close to 10% accurate on that Porsche from a real thing so you are fine

[Horhe]

i'm going to have to go ahead and doubt you are close to 10% accurate on that Porsche from a real thing so you are fine

 

all coments are welcome, for my first car ever made more properly, Im happy with the results, nevertheless Im trying to push the model as much as I can. I would appreciate if you could expand your critic, always willing to learn from veteran modelers

Edited February 4, 2009 by Horhe

[quizzy]

I too have had the same question a couple of times. Everything about the model that is not modeled or painted by you (bought 3d models, bought 3d textures, downloaded 3d textures) you can not sell. Further more, if he wants the model, charge 50% of the total fee he already paid, but make sure to let him know that he will pay for the model. for me thats a gray standard material applied to all objects (again, that you modelled) converted to editable mesh. No need to be a complete jerk and collapse all meshes into one mesh.

If he wants the textures you painted and light setup you made, he will pay 100% of the total fee.

If he wants all rights to your stuff which I think he wants in your case, charge at least 150% of the total fee. I feel he wants to be able to generate renderings etc himself?? so 150% is a very cheap deal for him.

 

One thing, stick to the above, you are selling your knowledge!! thats, as I like to think, priceless.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mike.]

Thanks very much Quizzy

priceless advice.

[TheAllusionisst]

generally i think the model is shared amongst consultants but controlled but the designing architect for coordination purposes.

 

If you are hired in an architectural firm as an employee or as a draftsman subcontractor then the implication based on standard practices is that the CAD or BIM model are to be passed on to the architect. If you are a subcontractor the agreement may only be the construction documents (2D drawings). In regards to visualization there is no implication to this via standard practices. In any case you should cover it in your Contract.

 

3D models aren't part of 'Deliverables' unless specified ahead of time or negotiated later if you are inclined, in the world of visualization that I have ever been exposed to. People need to stand their ground and not give away the farm. Just state that it is standard business practice not to hand over the digital resources used to create the actual deliverables. Most businessman will understand and respect this. You can mention as stated above that some content is not yours to pass along as well as the use of proprietory techniques that you may have developed.

 

Don't become like architects who screwed themselves over by passing along CAD files to their consultants. Consultants fees originally were based on having to manually draft architectural backgrounds, once CAD backgrounds were given to them, they never reduced the price of their services. This kind of lack of backbone and and internal fortitude (giving away your work for free such as architects are notoriously famous for) is a sure way to end up in the poorhouse. IMHO

[andy shand]

bottom line is that the architect wants your model so that he can get somone in house to do further work on it at much less cost.

 

all these stories about websites ect ect:rolleyes:

 

i have even had one of my cityscape models handed back to me for a project in the same area by another firm altogether...so it was passed around freely.

 

just wondering if you have to pass on models to the client then you should be able to write in a clause that says you cannot pass it on to 3rd parties.

[NickG]

This does not refer to the original question... but the cars...

 

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/21/203240

 

 

 

NG

[AJLynn]

I read the decision in the car case. What it hinged on was that the models were an exacting replication of the car's geometry and were otherwise unadorned and specifically done so that the firm doing the modeling had applied no creativity or artistic interpretation to the models. They were therefore found not to be creative or artistic works.

 

This decision is not applicable to people in France or to really any of the sort of work people on this forum are doing. If you put in a camera and composed a shot, or added some foliage or entourage or texture or lighting, you've done creative work and now own it.

 

Also, the company that modelled the cars handed over the model files as the deliverable. The contract was for the models, not the renders, which were done by another consultant. The court decision does not suggest that, had the deliverables been the images, the consultant would have been compelled to turn over the model files - just because the client would have the right to use them if they had them does not mean you have to give them to them or spend any time exporting an uncreative model for them.

 

And the plaintiff in that case made a bit of an error by suing for copyright infringement, which was tangential to the real case, which was breach of contract. The contract had specified how the models were to be used and the client was clearly in violation.

 

BTW, Antisthenes' interpretation is incorrect, unless he's talking about a model that the architect made. Absent a contract to the contrary, a model made by a visualization consultant is not property of the architect, any more than the architect's drawings are property of his client.

[andreg]

I would say that the models belong to you.... same goes for any digital media. I never give my photoshop files with layers and all to customers. They get a flattened version of it. Same goes with flash animations, they get a SWF file not the actual FLA file that made the SWF. Besides most of my customers don't have the necessary software to work with this.

 

My 2 cents

[DarinClifton]

You need to review your copyright laws, in the US it is easy. You create it you control it. The Meshwerks case is interesting, I would bet if they had written there contract better they would have won there case, but claiming the copyrights after they lost the work is a little inconsistent. In the world of design visualization it is a bit different as Meshwerks lost there case on the fact that they made "good copies" of the existing Toyota cars, we typically make models of thing that "don't exist" I also think that MeshWerks needed better lawyers, because this sets a nasty precedent for the rest of us!

 

Under the 1976 Copyright Act as amended (title 17 of the United States Code), a work is protected by copyright from the time it is created in a fixed form. In other words, when a work is written down or otherwise set into tangible form, the copyright immediately becomes the property of the author who created it. Only the author or those deriving their rights from the author can rightfully claim copyright.

[BVI]

I am aware of the varies legalities surround ownership, but I think before it even gets to this point, maybe have a chat with the client about it. Im sure they wont be able to do much with the model anyway - you said he wants to use it on his website? An easy out would be to charge a service fee to prepare the model for him etc?

[Mike.]

I am aware of the varies legalities surround ownership, but I think before it even gets to this point, maybe have a chat with the client about it. Im sure they wont be able to do much with the model anyway - you said he wants to use it on his website? An easy out would be to charge a service fee to prepare the model for him etc?

 

thanks BIV,

yes as i told, i had to call hium back 20 minutes later. So i did.

he continued to put pressure on me until the end of the conversation, when he saw i wouldn't break. the he relaxed. i proposed him a deal (half the total price for the models). i don't think he will accept, but things are fine. he calmed down, and we are still working together in the best spirit we can.

 

Thanks all for your advice !

Edited February 6, 2009 by Mike.

[Scott Erstad]

Things may be about to change, and not for the good. We should all participate to help with this cause... and fight the Orphan Works Bill. More info can be had here....

http://www.illustratorspartnership.org/

[AJLynn]

Everybody stop throwing in randomly chosen legal issues. This thread has nothing at all (and I'm serious - not one single thing) to do with orphan works. The orphan works law will not steal your Max files and give them to Rupert Murdoch.

[Jan]

If you buy a 3d software like 3dsmax for example, you can't request the source code (would be hilarious to see his face at that time)