ikinman Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Each region would get together (online, an actual in-person conference? wow - that would be incredible) and they hammer out some sort of standardised pricing plan. Each member therefore has the 'burdon' of worrying what the other guy in the next state over is charging and "am I charging enough/too much?" removed. The 'risk' is a non-member would undercharge us... Actually the risk (In the U.S. at least) is that you would go to jail for price collusion and racketeering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 well, the best laid intentions...and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Actually the risk (In the U.S. at least) is that you would go to jail for price collusion and racketeering. Isn't that how mechanics work? They have the manual they use that says "to replace a starter, it will take 1.25 hours" and I think most of them have a standard hourly rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinman Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Isn't that how mechanics work? They have the manual they use that says "to replace a starter, it will take 1.25 hours" and I think most of them have a standard hourly rate. Maybe the mechanics in Savannah have a standard hourly rate, but they don't here in New York. And an hourly rate for mechanics in New York is very different than an hourly rate for mechanics in Savannah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 And an hourly rate for mechanics in New York is very different than an hourly rate for mechanics in Savannah. That's definitely true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) There are industry standard rate ranges in a lot of professions, collusion is something else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion Edited February 11, 2009 by innerdream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Isn't that how mechanics work? They have the manual they use that says "to replace a starter, it will take 1.25 hours" and I think most of them have a standard hourly rate. You have a choice to go to a less expensive mechanic. However, if you go to several shops and they are charging the same rate, that probably means the labor cost has been fixed/set at a particular price, which violates (U.S.) antitrust laws. Prior to 1985, the architectural and engineering professions required firms to adhere to an established fee schedule and prohibited competitive bidding. The Department of Justice deemed these arrangement to be price-fixing and restraint of trade. In 1985, the professions agreed to a letter of consent to cease and desist with such practices. The architectural profession, as a part of the settlement, is not even allowed to publish the results of employee or firm compensation surveys because it may influence fees. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mi75 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 SandmanNinja, I hear what you’re saying but have to agree with the replies re price fixing. I’ve been in and out of the game for 10 years and I’m now re-entering the industry with my own business in QLD. Have you thought about franchising? All the little guys out there forming one company with outlets in all states using the same pricing structure and producing only HQ work. Each office can have sub-contractors but the quality of work MUST meet a certain standard which regularly gets reviewed by a support forum. At the moment it seems like you have the odd big company in each state and then a million (exaggeration) little guys working from home offices or cheap rental premises with a couple of employees. The only way I see you can have any control over pricing in your own backyard is to somehow incorporate all the little guys under the same umbrella. Just thinking out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) Controlling pricing in your own back yard is pretty much a non issue, this is a global industry. The other thing is that just about every student coming out of school can do 3D so Architects will continue to exploit raw talent and only when necessary pay for the better image makers - those projects will continue to be awarded on a price and quality basis. I'm all for an industry standard but you're asking the impossible in this industry, there isn't the support structure or motivation. It will continue to be like most business dog eat dog. Edited February 12, 2009 by innerdream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fermino Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 The other thing is that just about every student coming out of school can do 3D so Architects will continue to exploit raw talent and only when necessary pay for the better image makers - those projects will continue to be awarded on a price and quality basis. quote] That so true im an architecture student and a lot of architects ask us for 3d scenes. My classmates do it for very little money. ( if i write the number i will be banned ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think a problem is that software piracy allows people to undercharge. If I were a plumber, I could not download wrenches, spanners, pliers, etc. If the tools of my trade are software, then I can download everything that my more honest colleagues pay for. Do you REALLY think all of these people in China (for instance) pay for software? I say China because years ago Microsoft recognised that Software Piracy was SO BAD there, that they wrote a Site License for Windows (may have been Windows 98 or 2000) for The Entire Country. Microsoft said it was better to have the entire country licensed than trying to figure out who was licensed and who wasn't. So as long as Joe High School Student can download a program and sit in their parent's house (rent free, mortgage free), with no financial obligations, and turn out 3D images for pocket money, then how can legitimate businesses effectively operate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M. Gruhn Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I usually miss "how the real world works" issues, so does this make sense : Sure, "times are tough" but if somebody has work for you to do then in arch viz that pretty much means there's a job out there and somebody to pay for it. "We want to build a $4m building and have the money for it but only want to pay half price for the renders." What? If you've got the money you've got the money. If you don't have the money why are you trying to build? I could see maybe if it were a firm trying to get a job and they want to put a little extra zing into a proposal in hopes of maybe getting the job and since times are slow they can't afford to spend a lot on not a sure thing... But I'm betting that isn't the usual case here. "We've got a building to do and the money to put it up but we're pretty sure we can't rent it out so cut us some slack on the fee"? No, I don't understand. What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I usually miss "how the real world works" issues, so does this make sense : ................ "We want to build a $4m building and have the money for it but only want to pay half price for the renders." ................................................................... What am I missing? Greed and the fact that they know they can find someone to do it really cheap. Put it into perspective, for that building a couple renderings are 0.2% of the construction cost for the sake of this conversation, but are needed in most cases to get tenants to commit to space prior to construction completion. The probable cost for the smallest monthly leasable space in that building is probably greater than the rendering fees we are discussing. You can say that the rendering services for this job should be greater than what I am discussing, but my point is minimal visualization services, even if you multiplied what I am talking about 2-4x it is still a small fraction of the losses they will incur sitting on an empty building. The developers know this and will spend what is needed to market the project, they are just going to get the lowest price they can so that their profit increases. If you are foolish enough to work at rates that you barely break even or lose money on, they do not care, it is not personal, just economics to them. This isn't bashing developers, it is just how the game is played, the closer you are to the money source, the more you are going to make, the real estate broker makes more selling the building than the architectural firm does for designing it, creating construction documents, getting it through permitting and seeing it through construction administration. A lot of the reasons this is true is that the profession of architecture has let it happen by caving in to clients and under bidding one another. It happens in our profession as well, I do what I can to raise our profession's image in public awareness in what we really do and the pursuit of fair compensation for our services. Each person can play a part, but we can't expect everyone to have the same perceived values as we do. Back on point, if you can get an estimated construction value or apply a regional cost per square foot value to the project, you can use that in your negotiations to show how small your fee is relative to the project versus the marketing value of your services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonRashid Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I don't know about elsewhere, but having been an external examiner at a UK University or two I find the competition from this area to be minimal. There are very few with the skills to match most of the experienced people. The internet is littered with websites that stand out because they have course work and one paying job. What allows most of you to turn jobs round quickly is your experience not just your talent and its important to remember that. The enthusiatic amateur developer may be prepared to take a risk with an untried student but few established companies are and the current recession is reducing their numbers drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Having students as competitors shouldn't be a problem with a pro. First, we were all students once and we had to make a living. So we did what we could. I can't remember how many times I did work as a student and was paid less than we agreed simply because I was naive. You can easily provide services tha tthey can't, animation which needs resources they can't afford, design assistance services if you can handle cosntant changes from the client, whole package projects that includes multi renderings, brochure, etc..., If you really are afraid of competition from the less experienced students that is going to be a problem for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Having students as competitors shouldn't be a problem with a pro. First, we were all students once and we had to make a living. So we did what we could. I can't remember how many times I did work as a student and was paid less than we agreed simply because I was naive. You can easily provide services tha tthey can't, animation which needs resources they can't afford, design assistance services if you can handle cosntant changes from the client, whole package projects that includes multi renderings, brochure, etc..., If you really are afraid of competition from the less experienced students that is going to be a problem for you. It's not fear, it's the reality of the business...Architects are cheap. They hire interns and students because they are cheap and only when necessary do they hire more experienced labor. It's just the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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