Devin Johnston Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I just received a spam e-mail from a company in India advertising their visualizations, not to bright in my opinion. That isn't unusual I get one or two every month but this one had something different in it that the others haven't, they included prices. This is where my jaw hit the floor and I've included several examples of what they sent me so you can see what they are advertising. I've never seen prices this low and the quality is very good for something so cheep. I don't know any details, I'm not sure if you have to provide a 3D model or if they do all the work but in either case it's still insanely cheep. This is why I have a big problem with outsourcing, how are people in developed countries supposed to compete with this. If your going to say that you have to do your best to differentiate your self from the competition my answer would be that these guy's will beat you every time because with prices that low no amount of butt kissing is going to matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 As I have mentioned here before I worked for Gensler for 17 years when the company was very young and I was part of the team that made it a success. The reason I bring that up is this. I emailed some of the principles of the firm asking them if they had some viz work? Their reply..." we have our offices in Costa Rica and Asia do all of our 3d work." I personally am looking for the exit, and opportunities to work in the entertainment field. That said I think it would be good at this time to stress the importance of using talent on our own shores to firms located here. Protectionism? Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Schatz ASAI Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Binlowdhen the job terrorist's. That is low(repeat 5 or 100 times) cost work, My costs are 10 times that, and that's after getting talked out in the first place. Healthy competition grows the industry My _$$. Is it that bad out there that people feel a need to destroy the value of the industry? Oh, I forgot that seems to be a strong human trait. Could this be temporary, no idea, I just hope it is. Maybe these are the guys that always did the work in the first place and learn how to cutout the middle man. And then gave them selves a $0.50 raise. Let us find away to combat this grotesque infraction of our industry from this low cost monster. A note to the people that do charge a $100 for a $1200 job, this hurts you to, maybe not to day, but as time go on you be asked or told to go lower, you will never get the value of your work and will eating scrapes all your life, you have real skills and are good at this charge a proper fee and help your industry grow healthy all over the world, If you need help will this I am positive that there are many of us that will help you, just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckytohaveher Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) The average income in much of India is approximately $500-$750 per YEAR! The guys busting up obsolete oil tankers make $2 per Day! I left the visualization business 5 years ago directly due to this reason. With eight, sixteen, and eventually 64-way servers added to fiber optic cable on the ocean floor, combined with BIM and library technology, combined with real-time graphics cards with 12,000 simultaneous CUDA threads -- the outcome can't be good for the "artisan" who makes $75K a year in the U.S. Now you know how the car makers, furniture makers, the shoe makers, and even the broom makers felt when they lost their jobs. It sucks for us, but that is globalism. It has a way of making everyone go to the same level. The nice part is that over the next 20 years their pay and income will come up, just like Japan in the 1970s and Korea in the 1980s, and will equalize. The economic down turn in the U.S. is partially due to the fact that we don't make anything any more. Our net exports, when you include energy, are vastly negative. Therefore, until our currency declines and our living standard drop precipitously, we will be in this situation. GM is loosing $85M per DAY over the last year. The U.S. is pretty much done. I am really sorry -- I miss rendering and the art of it all immensely, just like the rest of you will, eventually. Then again, with Moore's law, it is only a question of time before my current job is outsourced to some kind of 'bot' running in a closet somewhere utilizing some clever software (also written in India). Edited February 27, 2009 by luckytohaveher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 It sucks for us, but that is globalism. It has a way of making everyone go to the same level. Unfortunately you’re correct but I wouldn’t call it globalism as much as I would socialism, what ever you call it the only people that will benefit temporality are those in poorer countries. Those people will eventually feel the hurt once there is no work left for them to do because the US has collapsed. These companies don't need to charge these prices, if they really live on so little don't they realize that if they charged what the market could support even if it cut there business by 2/3 they would still come out ahead and they wouldn’t be pulling the rest of us down with them. There has got to be something we can do about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfienoakes Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Its all very well charging that sort of money, and showing what sort of jobs you can get for that money, but I have yet to see anyone who has come out and said: "Yes I get these guys to do all my renderings, and the quality is that good every time, the working relationship is great, and they always interprete my ideas correctly and on time".. Once someone does that, then I think it would be bad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Its all very well charging that sort of money, and showing what sort of jobs you can get for that money, but I have yet to see anyone who has come out and said: "Yes I get these guys to do all my renderings, and the quality is that good every time, the working relationship is great, and they always interprete my ideas correctly and on time".. Once someone does that, then I think it would be bad news. I'm not going to help advertise the companies that Gensler is using but I know who they are and quite frankly their work is quite good on a consistent basis. I also know that they went as far as to retain one firm on a monthly basis, in other words pay them if they were working or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfienoakes Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I cant help but feel though, that those types of "bargain basement" firms are few and far between. I bet for every gem of a company like that, there are 20 who were a nightmare to work with, didnt deliver, had terrible comms and where generally un workable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Unfortunately you’re correct but I wouldn’t call it globalism as much as I would socialism, what ever you call it the only people that will benefit temporality are those in poorer countries. Those people will eventually feel the hurt once there is no work left for them to do because the US has collapsed. These companies don't need to charge these prices, if they really live on so little don't they realize that if they charged what the market could support even if it cut there business by 2/3 they would still come out ahead and they wouldn’t be pulling the rest of us down with them. There has got to be something we can do about this. It's not socialism, it's uncalibrated capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sadly I feel that our profession is going to become obsolete, we will be out of business all of us in a couple of years, and US software makers will follow us into bankrupcy as no one will buy their software anymore. The only jobs left would be employment at large Viz firms who still see the value of having inhouse artists, and sweat shops in india and china. I will then open my donut shop and you are all invited for free donuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sadly I feel that our profession is going to become obsolete, we will be out of business all of us in a couple of years, and US software makers will follow us into bankrupcy as no one will buy their software anymore. The only jobs left would be employment at large Viz firms who still see the value of having inhouse artists, and sweat shops in india and china. I will then open my donut shop and you are all invited for free donuts... Maple logs? As software evolves the designer will just hit a button and a rendering will come out. They will update their materials camera views as they are working and voila. It's only a matter of time that this will be a reality. There will still probably be a need for some artists but not as many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Unless you evolve with the industry, then you will be forced to close your doors. A highly integrated process is vital to survival. A process where the visualizations are part of the design pipeline, rather than a separate pipeline in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Come on guys. Don't take this all so negative. If you are an artist you must be enjoying your job in the first place for making beautiful things. If someone can deliver stuff for a fraction of the price I really doubt if they are 100% legit: all hardware, software and other stuff you need can not justify such a low price. Surely Autodesk or any other software maker must realize that they will lose a lot of their customers so I advice them to check on those particular firms that "ruin" the market. With such low prices I know clients will exploit to the max with unendless changes since they have a lot of "room" compared to western prices. In the end these providers will bite themselves in their feet. On the other hand they don't care if they can provide a service for years to come or for just one day...money is money...and this will attract a specific client with a specific project. About the shown images: technically they may be OK but it surely is NOT art !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 It's not socialism, it's uncalibrated capitalism. I was referring to luckytohaveher comment about making everyone go to the same level which sounds like socialism to me but the problem I see is that when you have two competing economies of such large disparages the weaker one will always look more attractive to the larger one. In the end that is going to do nothing but weaken the stronger one which is exactly what were seeing now. Unless you evolve with the industry, then you will be forced to close your doors. A highly integrated process is vital to survival. A process where the visualizations are part of the design pipeline, rather than a separate pipeline in itself.How exactly do you evolve your business to compete with someone who is 10x cheaper than you are. How long will it take for people to develop the kind of relationship you’re talking about before that could be a possibility? This isn't about customer relations it's about undercutting an industry that will ultimately lead to its downfall. Why would my employer pay me to do the very job your describing when they could get the same output for 10x cheaper and not have to worry about social security payments, or health care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 How exactly do you evolve your business to compete with someone who is 10x cheaper than you are. How long will it take for people to develop the kind of relationship you’re talking about before that could be a possibility? This isn't about customer relations it's about undercutting an industry that will ultimately lead to its downfall. Why would my employer pay me to do the very job your describing when they could get the same output for 10x cheaper and not have to worry about social security payments, or health care? Assuming that those models were created with Revit, then there is the possibility that they were already partially textured, and setup. In theory, you can pull that model, bring it into Max, kick out a couple of renderings, post in Photoshop. Given the quality, anyone of those images could be knocked out in less than 5 hours. 3.5 hours max if Autodesk implemented a true pipeline between Revit and Max. Now how long did the designer spend simply communicating with the render about how to do the image, and about the design. 3 hours? With a highly integrated process that plugs into the design pipeline, and pulls from the BIM model combined with a artistic and technical savy background and an understaning of design and architecture you can offer a competitve package to what you currently get overseas, and you can garunteee it is accurate. At least that is my take on it. Now if Autodesk would just finish the damn FBX pipeline it would be easier. I would guess my firm is wasting more than $100,000 a year because of the difficulty getting between Revit and Max. Rightnow it is a joke that we have to import the model, and spend an hour or two processing it before we can use it. Time is money. I guess the only way to figure out the truth to this outsourcing service is to throw $200 at it, and see what you get in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDVERTEX Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 You are all so negative .... It's always like that when there is no job, and the profit is too low. It's all over the world. This is not just a "Global Crisis" or "US Crisis". This is an absolute economic revolution. We will talk again after 2 years. All of us have to be more flexible in working flow, money deals and a significant improvement is a must. Also this images and prices are absolutely normal. This is absolute "below the average" quality. I will not pay a penny for that. So you don't have to be so negative and nervous. AutoDesk also will have new price policy. They will have to cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 It may be below average to you but the architect down the street doesn’t care that your images have been in ELEMENTAL 15 times because there looking for the best deal they can get to satisfy their client’s demands. I agree there is still a market for high end renderings/animations but for the every day stuff these guy's will fill the need. Travis, if I spent 3.5 hours working on a rendering that's already $400 and I'm already over budget compared to those guy's. I guess you could say cut my costs but is that realistic if you've built your whole business on those hourly wages? Even if I did I can't feed my family on $700 a month, that won't even pay my mortgage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Travis, if I spent 3.5 hours working on a rendering that's already $400 and I'm already over budget compared to those guy's. I guess you could say cut my costs but is that realistic if you've built your whole business on those hourly wages? Even if I did I can't feed my family on $700 a month, that won't even pay my mortgage. Yes, you are not going to beat the price, nor should you want to. I am just saying that I don't believe the overseas option is as cut and dried as people want to believe it is. If I remember correctly, you work in a firm right? So the amount of time required for a designer to get you the information to create that image had been reduced to half an hour for a job like this. You have the ability to pull the information you need, and don't have to wait for emails to go back and fourth, etc... etc.. And you can guarantee the information is correct, or close to correct the first time around. As you work with certain designers, you can get to know them, and can practically predict what their design intention is. These are all things that can not be done by someone overseas. They are still going to beat you in initial price, but that doesn't mean they are going to get it right. At the end of the day, I wouldn't put my name on any of the renderings that were posted. They just simple are not nice enough, and are at about the quality that many of our designers are creating on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sadly I feel that our profession is going to become obsolete, we will be out of business all of us in a couple of years, and US software makers will follow us into bankrupcy as no one will buy their software anymore. The only jobs left would be employment at large Viz firms who still see the value of having inhouse artists, and sweat shops in india and china. I will then open my donut shop and you are all invited for free donuts... You'll need a cook or two right? Maybe a cashier? I'm putting my name in now to beat the rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 ...AutoDesk also will have new price policy. They will have to ... I hope so. I would not like to see them fall holding my favorite software...I think I will have to sharpen my pencils again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 You'll need a cook or two right? Maybe a cashier? I'm putting my name in now to beat the rush. And a donut taster! Just to make sure they're safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I will then open my donut shop and you are all invited for free donuts... Now then Ihab, you'll not make any money giving away free donuts! Maybe a better business model would be to outsource the donut making and simply be the donut delivery guy. Just make sure you deliver warm, tasty, fresh, original flavor donuts and always have time for a chat with your clients, or they'll start using the local donut guys again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Schatz ASAI Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 You'll need a cook or two right? Maybe a cashier? I'm putting my name in now to beat the rush. What about plane fair, or do we need work on boat to get dair? I talked to my wife and she was saying the same type of thing is happening in the writing field, $0.50 for a 250 word Parg., how would you make a living doing that? (you need to know prefect English to apply, is that sick or what) I think I might cut lawns this spring, I could use the exerciser, but then I don't know Spanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cassil Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm not sure what happened to my post. It was long and about how it would be difficult for us to outsource anywhere, even down the street, because of how integrated visualization is in the design process. So much of what we do here requires personal contact. Verbal direction, pointing, physical samples, napkin sketches, etc. We are a part of the design. To try and package that up and send it across the world, even with all the telecomunication, and even if someone spoke native english, it just wouldn't work. We tried it, and it didn't. I do agree with the sentiment that more and more offices will have dedicated visualization teams. We've seen that trend already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IC Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I was referring to luckytohaveher comment about making everyone go to the same level which sounds like socialism to me MAKING everyone go to the same level? How? Through concern for others? When and how did this happen exactly? Open your eyes-those doors were opened for financial gain-not through philanthropy. Luckytohaveher was right-what you are witnessing here is capitalism combined with the inevitable outcome of globalisation. These people are making a living by undercutting their competition without losing profit. That is as close as you will come to a definition of capitalism. Their idea of acceptable profit, when you include currency exchange and national earnings, is completely different from yours or mine so, if they can compete with us via the internet or good marketing, we have no option but to accept it. 9 out of 10 of my clients have no concerns about their actual outlay or the socio-political results of any of their commissions. They only worry about product (my renders) over profit (sales generated by my renders.) Whether I cost £200 or £2000 is meaningless compared to sales of £2,000,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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