Unbeleavable

[Devin Johnston]

MAKING everyone go to the same level? How? Through concern for others? When and how did this happen exactly?

Open your eyes-those doors were opened for financial gain-not through philanthropy..

True

 

Their idea of acceptable profit, when you include currency exchange and national earnings, is completely different from yours or mine so, if they can compete with us via the internet or good marketing, we have no option but to accept it.

 

9 out of 10 of my clients have no concerns about their actual outlay or the socio-political results of any of their commissions. They only worry about product (my renders) over profit (sales generated by my renders.)

Whether I cost £200 or £2000 is meaningless compared to sales of £2,000,000.

Yes they are competing with us, the question is are they doing it fairly. They may be able to live on $200 a month but I can't and the kicker is they are getting this work only because they are so cheap, in my opinion quality is secondary. This is the perfect case where a tariff would be a good thing, don't get me wrong I hate taxes but in this case it's the only way to guarantee fair competition.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

This is the perfect case where a tariff would be a good thing, don't get me wrong I hate taxes but in this case it's the only way to guarantee fair competition.

 

I agree that we need to revisit the tax code on outsourced items so that the playing field isn't punishing to Americans who are not executives, but I often wonder how well it would work on items that are nothing more than 1's and 0's. Which, when broken down, is what we are dealing with.

[znotlin]

Laissez Faire capitalism on a uneven playing field sucks. That said, it is pretty amazing that the world infrastructure now supports an economy where people who may have lived in squalor for centuries can participate, and support their families. And they do deserve to make a living as much as you, don't they, or....?

 

That said, do you always eat Ramen, or occaisionally when it is an important event do you go to a fancy restaurant and spring for the $25 entree? My point is that if you're an architecture firm buying renderings - for the run of the mill normal procedure you're gonna go overseas, and in house, because it is cheaper to produce basic design process maintenance renderings that way. But when it comes time to market the project - those renderings (with rare exceptions)- don't cut it and you have to hire someone, and that person needs to pamper you like a waiter or waitress in a fancy restaurant.

 

If all you're selling is 3D modeling, a publicly held material library, and some computing power - you're screwed, because the difference between $500 and $5000 is A LOT. If you're selling art, and service, and peace of mind, the difference between $500 and $50,000 isn't so much for people who measure their own dedication to their marketing efforts in dollars.

 

And of course the other way to go, if you were a really cut throat capitalist, you would reach out to them and offer to pimp them here, let them do the work, and add a tidy profit for yourself. If of course you felt you could trust people that likely don't have legal software (at those prices one has to surmise), and have helped commoditize a craft you hold dear....

 

BTW - Tariffs, not likely considering the most favored nation trading status, and the amount we borrow from Asia - as Hillary Clinton (whom I'm not a big fan of - but this was a good quote) said " it's hard to get tough with your banker". This is race to the bottom capitalism, the robber baron, government get out of the way and let the free market operate dream - that said...I would say those people do deserve to make a living as much as you or me.

Edited February 28, 2009 by znotlin

[DarinClifton]

Znotlin has it right, if you are a puppy mill operation you will never compete with the masters of reproduction, but if you need an original thought, a partner to help you sell your ideas, you are still going to seek out a professional that you can trust. (or not and get screwed a couple of times)

We have both tried to off shore a few things (which did NOT work, most of our projects are much to complicated, or the client would have done it themselves) as well as help our clients that have off shored projects and had to clean up the mess they were given. The fact is unless you have control of the offshore operation (which some firms/studios do) it is much more trouble than it is worth. If the client has every detail ready to hand to someone, a good offshore company can do a bang up job! The problem is the most designers don't have all of the information and if they realized how much time they spend getting it together it will undoubtedly would have been cheaper to just hire a local professional. (and you should point that out after the screw themselves a few times)

Keep you heads up, things are bond to get worse before they get better! (especially if the US government has anything to do with it!)

D

[IC]

This is the perfect case where a tariff would be a good thing, don't get me wrong I hate taxes but in this case it's the only way to guarantee fair competition.

 

I agree. It will be a serious problem for most of us if it remains unchecked.

 

Maybe we're looking at it the wrong way-I could get the Chinese firm who keep emailing me for work to do all my projects for a small percentage of my fees and I could just put my feet up!

[bricklyne]

True

 

 

Yes they are competing with us, the question is are they doing it fairly. They may be able to live on $200 a month but I can't and the kicker is they are getting this work only because they are so cheap, in my opinion quality is secondary. This is the perfect case where a tariff would be a good thing, don't get me wrong I hate taxes but in this case it's the only way to guarantee fair competition.

 

What the hell are you talking about fairly?

Fair competition for whom? You? So its only fair when you're doing well and they're making squat or close to nothing? How does that compute?

 

Now that they are working harder than you are, and don't have to pay as high a price for their cost of living, they don't deserve a 'fair' chance to improve their lives and strive for prosperity like you have all these years?

 

I thought you were the one that was just decrying socialism just a little while ago. What the hell would you then call it when the market is artificially adjusted to make the playing field more level for those having a difficult time?

 

I hate to be the wet blanket but were you concerned about fairness for the better part of the last (20th) Century when most of those "Third" Worlders were living in squalor and deplorable ( by your standards ) conditions thanks to unfair global market policies, debilitating quotas on their goods and services, along with those lovely little tariffs you think will help "even" the playing field now?

 

The ludicrous (some would say, sweet) irony is that the West now finds itself in this unenviable position thanks to the global economic trade structure that they instituted in the past couple of centuries by first exploiting those Developing countries through colonialism and imperialism in the 18th and 19th Centuries and then through a tilted global market run via proxy through the likes of the World Trade Organization (WTO) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) among others (G8, G20, G-n; were n= No "poor" country) for the better part of the last Century.

 

Unfortunately they just figured a way to make the uneven system work for them thanks to technology (the internet) - the great equalizer, hard work, and the weak currencies they've been burdened with.

 

And if you seriously think that using tariffs, protectionist taxes, Government subsidies and all that sort of nonsense is going to restore any deluded semblance of fairness, then you should perhaps just take a look at the Japanese economy and see just how artificially finessing their economy, their market and the export products with import tariffs, and government subsidies for their local firms is working out for them at the moment with the ever-dwindling Nikkei.

Edited February 28, 2009 by bricklyne

[leoA4D]

Maxer, I encourage you to send a letter with those images and asking prices to your elected representatives. How many times have we listened to politicians railing about the importance of small businesses to a thriving national economy?

 

Outsourcing will continue to force more small businesses, rendering freelancers and firms, into bankruptcy. We are suppose to favor globalization and unfettered fair trade and within such dictates, is the understanding that we are willing to make necessary sacrifices such as financial security and solvency, dreams, jobs, homes, physical/mental health, etc. The American Dream is now the China Dream and the India Dream. These are places where people of poor countries believe the streets are paved with gold. More Americans are moving to jobs or opening businesses in China and India every day.

 

In the past, politicians would promise a chicken in every pot or a car in every garage or the American Dream for all. These days, no "leader" offers an image of a rosy future - near or distant.

 

Do consider sending those to your politicians. I am downloading them and sending them to mine.

 

Leonard

[leoA4D]

One more thing.

 

Bricklyne is right! Maxer, make friends with the inevitable! North America is becoming a member of the third world. It earned it! We deserve it for all the crimes we, as barbarians, criminals and terrorists, have committed against the "former" third world countries and others. Instead of trying to avoid the inevitable, North America should revel in all the glory that will come with living in squalor and deplorable conditions.

 

Leonard

[ihabkal]

Whether I cost £200 or £2000 is meaningless compared to sales of £2,000,000.

 

not here. Cheap Lebanese clients sell condos for a millin bucks each, and more, Beirut is the most expensive city in the region after Dubai, and they still nag me till I hate myself over $50. THey want to make 10 million dollars profit of a buillding, and pay $200 per rendering. And there are plenty of guys using cracked software willing to do it.

[Devin Johnston]

Maybe we're looking at it the wrong way-I could get the Chinese firm who keep emailing me for work to do all my projects for a small percentage of my fees and I could just put my feet up!

 

I've considered doing this more than once

 

One more thing.

 

Bricklyne is right! Maxer, make friends with the inevitable! North America is becoming a member of the third world. It earned it! We deserve it for all the crimes we, as barbarians, criminals and terrorists, have committed against the "former" third world countries and others. Instead of trying to avoid the inevitable, North America should revel in all the glory that will come with living in squalor and deplorable conditions.

 

Leonard

Leonard you and Clarence should be comedians, I haven't had a good laugh like that in a long time!

[leoA4D]

Actually, with all the daily ugliness, I am quaking in my boots and running out of clean pants.

 

Leonard

[Fran]

It's "unbelievable". That's how much this worries me.

[znotlin]

or unleavened, if you're talking baking products.

[JDillon]

Thoughts on outsourcing to India, Asia, etc... there are many talented artists around the world that can charge much less than the industrialized countries. Big deal.

 

You must accept this idea in order to survive and move on. The money is not in doing the work, it's organizing the work to get done.

 

That's a tough pill to swallow. Have a great day!

 

Jason Dillon

[shaneis]

I've always found it amusing, when high-flyer's realise that indeed, they've farther to fall. Note to Icarus (US), you reap what you sow.

 

...I haven't had a good laugh like that in a long time!

 

Intelligent debate, an objective global view and willingness to weigh opinion really aren't your fortes, are they.

 

This is starting to take on a resonance akin to the ill-famed "Global Warming" thread.

[znotlin]

What is as funny as the reactionary, borderline racist rhetoric, is the idea that this is a come uppance for the US and a morality play (Icarus). Like these guys are heroes charging a pittance to get revenge on injustices done them by the US, and US workers (whose tax dollars I'll point out funded the research and development of the internet's founding) deserve it.

 

Sometimes there is no clear cut narrative involved, and this is one of those cases, it just is what it is.

[luckytohaveher]

Everyone -- please remember a couple of things. Before the U.S. Constitution 99.99% of everyone on the planet was virtually someone's serf or minion. In the last 230 years there are literally almost 200 democracies. I know the Greek's invented it, but this round has clearly been fought by the U.S.

 

Anyone here, not in the U.S., that votes, doesn't speak Nazi German, Suppressive Italian or Japanese (WWI and WWII), can vote, is not a suppressed Communist (Cold War) subject or has other freedoms -- please mail your Thank You Check to the U.S. treasury.

 

We ain't perfect, especially in energy, but we are the best thing going. We do have a way to go -- but, have you seen that new President of ours? Please be patient, once we solve OUR ENERGY problem -- we will be much better global citizens.

 

Back to economics:

 

Here is the point. Globalism, which is a hyper capitalist structure, is in place and highly subsidized by the U.S. global influence for two major reasons: First, it is to supply jobs to everyone regardless of country, ethic background, socio-economic status, or other criteria.

Second, it is in place to give the cheapest amount of goods to the most people.

 

The U.S. has pursued a policy since the Second World War to make everyone as busy as possible. Busy people rarely have the time to start wars, enable evil dictators, or fight freedom. Thus, the Indian explosion of talent, along with the Chinese, is there to give everyone jobs, a higher standard of living, and to be at peace. So, the Internet, software, computers (all products highly tied to the U.S. military) has been put in place to raise the standard of living over the long run.

 

Back to the primary question: Are these rendering prices real and possible? Yes, but not for very long. With the slide of the Dollar, the rise of India and China, and the ongoing economic simulation that is the world economy these prices can not hold. The immediate next 5-10 years will be bad for this particular business, but things will equal out.

 

Look to history. Japanese cars use to be made in Japan, along with Korean cars made in Korea? Why? Because that is history. However, once the price of making them equaled the U.S. price due to increase income and living standards in the home country, they started making them in the U.S.

 

The same will happen here eventually. The price of Chinese and Indian goods MUST COME UP by a significant margin over the next few years. Supply and demand curves dictate the outcome. The slide down for the U.S. and Canada and all the leading developed countries will be a bit painful; however, if this hadn't happened before the Japanese and Koreas would still be undeveloped.

 

Imagine a world were everyone makes +/- a living wage, has environmental responsibility, lives a good life, lives war free, and general is well off. Eventually, that is what globalism does. It just takes FOREVER in our minuscule perception of time. Over the long run most will live better.

 

Making a living in renderings in any developed world country will be difficult over the next few years. However, your shoes and related imported items will offset the lost income. The transactional overhead, as previously referenced, will create a real buffer to unrestricted and outsourced capitalism. Also, the digital tools will get better as the process becomes more integrated. This will keep more work in the developed home countries.

 

Most importantly, everyone in India (and other lower developed countries) will have an increased standard of living because their local artists will develop the skills we have here and offer them in the local market. This will increase their cost over time, but also greatly increase their ability to make the next Empire State Building, Golden Gate Bridge, or Disney Concert Hall.

 

Globalism is about getting everyone to good -- WITHOUT Communism, totalitarianism, fascism, or other suppression. It is about getting everyone to 'good' eventually. This will cost the U.S. a great deal ($1T in Iraq, $XXT in the cold war, and much more); however, it is cheaper than World War III. The first and second weren't so hot! The third would be.

 

Enjoy your $20 shoes, your $4 broom, your $15 shirt all brought to you by Wal-Mart and the global supply chain from India, Cambodia, Indonesia, and China (et.al.).

[znotlin]

So, to confirm, your thesis is that globalism is a benevolent conspiracy directed towards a common good spearheaded by the US in order to stop war?

 

Not trying to be cheeky, but people tend to skip over long posts.

[shaneis]

What is as funny as the reactionary, borderline racist rhetoric, is the idea that this is a come uppance for the US and a morality play (Icarus). Like these guys are heroes charging a pittance to get revenge on injustices done them by the US, and US workers (whose tax dollars I'll point out funded the research and development of the internet's founding) deserve it.

 

Sometimes there is no clear cut narrative involved, and this is one of those cases, it just is what it is.

 

Well, in some ways it is comeuppance - any economy that booms and races ahead of the rest will eventually recede just as any new economy will eventually flourish. I'm quite sure that at the tail end of this century, S.E. Asia will be enduring a similar experience. It seems that the US has had it's day and like it or not, the torch has been passed. We'll now see what the two most populous nations - both new to western capitalism- will do with near on 2.5 billion workers, extensive natural resources and every right to succeed in the free market.

 

To this, there was no insinuation that there is any heroism in S.E. Asian workers undercutting, nor that US workers are deserving of current uncertainty. It is in no way as personal as that. It is what it is - said nation quickly flew to freedom from economic boundaries, tried to fly too high and fell (is falling).

 

...but also greatly increase their ability to make the next Empire State Building, Golden Gate Bridge, or Disney Concert Hall.

 

Taipei 101, Hangzou Bay Bridge, National Grand Theatre, Three Gorges Dam... I think it's safe to say that the ability is already there and regularly surpassing many others.

 

...Globalism is about getting everyone to good -- WITHOUT Communism, totalitarianism, fascism, or other suppression... Enjoy your $20 shoes, your $4 broom, your $15 shirt all brought to you by Wal-Mart and the global supply chain from India, Cambodia, Indonesia, and China (et.al.).

 

Absolutely astounding - quite happy to accept one form of cheap goods, yet mortified that another form might create job uncertainty in the vis industry. Have you even considered that just like your new Nikes, the $100 renderings might be produced by underpaid and overworked artists? While you're enjoying your cheap shirts, brooms and shoes, spare a thought for those who made them. I wonder, would you be so keen to promote "fixing" this problem of cheap renderings if it meant "fixing" the problem of cheap clothing, appliances and so on? I doubt it.

 

So if it's all about "getting everyone to good" and "fair competition", what would you choose? Cheap off-shore clothes, appliances and renderings with little work at home, or paying more for off-shore clothes, appliances and renderings with plenty of work at home.

 

It is, after all, what it is.

[JDillon]

luckytohaveher, well put. A slow creep into the global market is a painful one, let's all hope for a successful outcome.

 

Just look at America's history. At least we aren't "Bleeding Kansas" anymore.

 

GO MIZZOU TIGERS!

 

Jason Dillon

[bricklyne]

Leonard you and Clarence should be comedians, I haven't had a good laugh like that in a long time!

 

Glad I could help.

 

It was, after all, the least I could do to cheer you up after all the whining about the potential of losing your livelihood to someone that just might outwork you, and out-compete you for business on the other side of the planet without actually understanding why it was happening.

 

And now, back to our regularly scheduled obliviousness and ignorant bliss.

[znotlin]

umm, we're in a downturn. Asia continues to burgeon, though that has also slowed. But everyone here that is writing the US's obituary might be getting ahead of themselves....The US's GDP is still larger than China's, Japan's, and India's combined. That tidbit doesn't help me pay my mortgage, but come on folks let's not be so sure that the present downturn, and Maxer's e-mail inbox, are in fact the last signs to appear before the conclusion of American pre-eminence.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

[kippu]

i could charge more for these kind of work locally ...looks and sounds weird to me ,

Edited March 1, 2009 by kippu

[leoA4D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxer

Leonard you and Clarence should be comedians, I haven't had a good laugh like that in a long time!

 

Glad I could help.

 

It was, after all, the least I could do to cheer you up after all the whining about the potential of losing your livelihood to someone that just might outwork you, and out-compete you for business on the other side of the planet without actually understanding why it was happening.

 

And now, back to our regularly scheduled obliviousness and ignorant bliss.

 

Time to come clean: my point was to parody a silly and insensitive response, IMHO, and direct Bricklyne to the fact that 1/ this is a global matter, 2/ that PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING and 3/ that it is important to imagine the future and prepare to either embrace or try to change it. The reference to North America was a direct reminder to Bricklyne that his gloating over our problems and role in history showed a reckless disregard for the well being of Canada and her people as well as the rest of us here in North America.

 

There it is. Sorry, I was not trying to be funny or entertaining.

 

Leonard

Edited March 1, 2009 by leoA4D

[Devin Johnston]

Well I can see this discussion has deteriorated, let me remind you that political discussions are prohibited as per forum rules, if you'd like to continue the bash fest please do it via PM or e-mail.