Unbeleavable

[Hazdaz]

My take on this whole situation is rather simple:

 

Trade/competition is good, but this is UNFAIR trade. People in developed nations simply can not compete with near slave-labor rates of people in countries like China, India and other such nations.

The only way to remotely "solve" this problem of unfair trade is to enact some form of tariff. Not crazy high tariffs, but enough to raise prices on these imported items to a level that can allow people in developed nations to at least be competitive.

[Tommy L]

Market price is dictated by...well....the market. If someone (anywhere) can deliver the same product, service, timeframe as you, they are your direct competition. Fair or not, thats the market price.

 

The key word that statement is 'SAME'. If you provide something better, something faster, something more responsive/accessible, then you ask what you think is fair. The client will decide whether to buy it or not.

 

So stop the whining, the big long discussion about US foreign policy or slave labor, who gives a ****, you're trying to make your business work right?

 

Concentrate on developing your product and your market. If you have given up because someone else can provide what you provide for less, get a job at Starbucks or move to China.

[Derek Forreal]

There has got to be something we can do about this.

 

if I spent 3.5 hours working on a rendering that's already $400 and I'm already over budget compared to those guy's.

 

So its only fair when you're doing well and they're making squat or close to nothing?

 

If you have given up because someone else can provide what you provide for less, get a job at Starbucks or move to China.

 

that's my take

[bricklyne]

Quote:

 

Time to come clean: my point was to parody a silly and insensitive response, IMHO, and direct Bricklyne to the fact that 1/ this is a global matter, 2/ that PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING and 3/ that it is important to imagine the future and prepare to either embrace or try to change it. The reference to North America was a direct reminder to Bricklyne that his gloating over our problems and role in history showed a reckless disregard for the well being of Canada and her people as well as the rest of us here in North America.

 

There it is. Sorry, I was not trying to be funny or entertaining.

 

Leonard

 

....that's somehow simultaneously hilarious and just plain sad. And then you wonder why they (the rest of the world) hates you (or us, by extension; seeing as Canada always gets sucked into whatever you guys do) so much.

 

If you seriously think I was gloating over other people's problems or trying to be insensitive, or worse yet, silly, then you have nothing but my deepest sympathy.

 

You were right about 1 thing though; it is a global matter - only you don't seem to realize just how much so, nor the fact that both Canada and the US both fall into that particular group. Whatever happens here affects the rest of the world and vice versa - now more than ever in history.

 

If like Maxer, you're incapable of seeing the hypocrisy of expecting to see (or even hoping for) life to become more miserable for people in other parts of the world (by reactionary tariffs on their goods and services, and that sort of nonsense), simply because you can't compete with them and in the name of "fairness", then I can only but wish you all the best.

 

After all, like I said before, ignorance is bliss - and clearly, all those uneducated people in those undeveloped squalid little backwater countries don't work hard for their living, or deserve any of what meager earnings they scrape daily. Unlike you.

Right?

[shaneis]

....then you wonder why they (the rest of the world) hates you (or us, by extension; seeing as Canada always gets sucked into whatever you guys do) so much.

 

No, no, no. Not at all. The rest of the world doesn't hate Canada...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUVg5UgC4T4&feature=related

 

(about 6:00 onwards) and then this one (part II)...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt333xxonN0&feature=related

[SandmanNinja]

...but we're still waiting for that apology about Bryan Adams...

[shaneis]

...and Celine Dion.

[leoA4D]

....that's somehow simultaneously hilarious and just plain sad. And then you wonder why they (the rest of the world) hates you (or us, by extension; seeing as Canada always gets sucked into whatever you guys do) so much.

 

If you seriously think I was gloating over other people's problems or trying to be insensitive, or worse yet, silly, then you have nothing but my deepest sympathy.

 

You were right about 1 thing though; it is a global matter - only you don't seem to realize just how much so, nor the fact that both Canada and the US both fall into that particular group. Whatever happens here affects the rest of the world and vice versa - now more than ever in history.

 

If like Maxer, you're incapable of seeing the hypocrisy of expecting to see (or even hoping for) life to become more miserable for people in other parts of the world (by reactionary tariffs on their goods and services, and that sort of nonsense), simply because you can't compete with them and in the name of "fairness", then I can only but wish you all the best.

 

After all, like I said before, ignorance is bliss - and clearly, all those uneducated people in those undeveloped squalid little backwater countries don't work hard for their living, or deserve any of what meager earnings they scrape daily. Unlike you.

Right?

 

How about you and others, who attack with the same old claims and ugliness about something you dislike, present fresh, constructive ideas and solutions that would improve lives?

 

Some comments here are nasty and mean in content and tone and for what purpose? Archviz is an extension of the design and building industry. We create, solve problems and build.

 

Leonard

[shaneis]

...present fresh, constructive ideas and solutions that would improve lives?

Mate, how many times and in how many ways does it have to be presented?

 

It's not like this is a new thing. This very trend within our industry was present before "the downturn" and to wit, has been discussed on this forum ad infinitum. There are many businesses that had the foresight to make necessary adjustments and are continually evaluating their needs to date. There is also a plethora of businesses from many of nations represented on this forum - all of which are enduring some measure of change - yet it is only a select few that are so unfair as to cry foul when a challenging situation arises, claim that it is uniquely their own and dare hope to change the rules so that they may better suit their own purpose, regardless of how that may affect their international colleagues.

 

To reiterate the constructive solution that improves lives - let all people of all economies compete on the free global market and endeavour to respect that they are doing whatever they can, are earning what they can, so that they may improve theirs and their family's lives. To this, develop your own manner of business to ensure its longevity and sustainability and learn to adapt to an ever changing business world and global market so that you too, can do the same.

[Jeff Mottle]

All,

 

This is obviously a very sensitive topic, but I'm going to have to ask that everyone tone it down a notch. This topic is very polarizing, but we are all professionals here, please act that way or I'll have to close this thread.

 

Thanks.

[leoA4D]

Mate, how many times and in how many ways does it have to be presented?

 

It's not like this is a new thing. This very trend within our industry was present before "the downturn" and to wit, has been discussed on this forum ad infinitum. There are many businesses that had the foresight to make necessary adjustments and are continually evaluating their needs to date. There is also a plethora of businesses from many of nations represented on this forum - all of which are enduring some measure of change - yet it is only a select few that are so unfair as to cry foul when a challenging situation arises, claim that it is uniquely their own and dare hope to change the rules so that they may better suit their own purpose, regardless of how that may affect their international colleagues.

 

I follow this forum very closely and I do not recall "many businesses" being enumerated or discussed "ad infinitum". There have been a few that have mentioned that adjustments have been made and others reportedly closing their doors and then it was reported they were still kicking. But that is it.

 

"...only a select few that are so unfair as to cry foul..." Select"? "...claim that it is uniquely their own..."? You got me.

 

To reiterate the constructive solution that improves lives - let all people of all economies compete on the free global market and endeavour to respect that they are doing whatever they can, are earning what they can, so that they may improve theirs and their family's lives.

 

That is platitude and one I subscribe to - somewhat. How do you reconcile the role local conditions play? I, a babe in the woods, have struggled with this and although unable to reconcile it, I realize it cannot be ignored or tossed out. Globalization, and your good wishes, do not necessarily work so well otherwise, people across the globe would not be suffering as they have never suffered before and others would have awakened from their dark ages.

 

Because an entity is large, huge or global does not necessarily mean it is going to work as the brains envisioned or prepared us for. When change is required, how does one effectively change a gigantic complex organ that quite likes the status quo? If size always worked, the Roman Empire would have covered most of the world by now.

 

A problem I have with globalization is that it is about money and the power it brings. And, I know you were anticipating this, "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely". No better examples exists than right here in the U.S.

 

As I believe globalization is intended to be for the benefit of a few, here is is what I believe most of us actually owe our existence to: KISS. Do you know that one?

 

Leonard

[leoA4D]

Oops. Just saw your post, Jeff. Believe me, I checked the brass knuckles, etc. at the door and I have not been eye gouging. Keeping it cool here.

 

Leonard

[vizwhiz]

Global Warning!! Global Warning!!

 

The software Pirates of The Caribbean have now gone global!

 

well, what are we supposed To do? how do we maintain our standard(s) of Living, and complying with all of The mandatory Rules and Regulation (otherwise known as keeping it Legal) when others just cut, copy and paste; using rogue softwares.

 

????

 

The playing field is NOT EVEN even.

 

all Low Cost 3d vizzer companys should have Their software registrations checked by Autodesk b4 being allowed To post work solicitations.

 

or at least after posting

 

(jest joking, well maybe NOT)

[innerdream]

As long as you can't send donuts over the internet my future is safe.

[alexg]

Randy may have a point, that is the one difference that makes these prices.

 

Apart from that, looking at the very beginning of the topic, I have met some people that gives dirt cheap renders, in the end, it's not really worthed outsourcing because of the sometimes not reasonable output provided.

Some only provide 800x600 finals (more are extras), some missed huge deadlines, some count the change in colour etc as revisions and charge full price for this.

All and all, in the end their $ count is only slightly lower than our initial quote.

 

Although, I also met several that is very good. Mostly these are super large firms with 80+ employees. They also suffer with this downturn, and with those big numbers of mouth to feed, they might be the ones that tumbles first.

[Sketchrender]

Anybody have a email for these cheap modeling and rendering companies?

 

I have been asked to look for outsourcing work that we can not handel in house, and it has to be cheap.

We are about to have mini budget in Ireland that will see taxes rais close to 60%.

 

In short the country is F**ked

 

To stay in the architectural Business we are all over the world looking for work.

 

To come in at the costs we are being ask to quote for we have to do the work 60% less of what we do it for over here at present.

 

So it's a case of becoming a client of some other party , getting the models in , and we render them, to controll the quality.

 

If you can't beat them join them sorry....We have to survive in the coming years, and some money is better than none.

 

So anybody have an address?

 

Phil

[ankit4d]

The average income in much of India is approximately $500-$750 per YEAR! The guys busting up obsolete oil tankers make $2 per Day!

.

 

I do not agree with this. Average salary of a architectural visualizer with 1-2 years experience in India is 4800 $ per YEAR. Artists with nice portfolio and experience even ask for more.

[Devin Johnston]

Anybody have a email for these cheap modeling and rendering companies?

 

OMGYG2BK

[Fran]

Nobody ever assumes that success in business requires ethics. At this point in time it's fair to assume that some businesses are surviving by totally disregarding ethics. One cannot, however, assume that all overseas render houses are using bootleg...everything and paying their people 50 cents a day.

 

The odds are pretty good that the house that Devin is referencing IS running bootleg software and paying negligable wages to their workers, unless it is one guy who is just really fast at this rendering thing. So, if you think you have found a good deal overseas, and checked out their credentials, verified that their software is legal and that their workers are paid a fair wage, then they deserve to compete.

 

If someone's viz business is tailored for developers and real estate brokers, then guess what? Their clients may be very likely to go to the cheapest source regardless of their credentials or legitimacy, because they also operate on the bottom line. Think of them as the used car salesmen of our business. That's just the way it is and you can't stop it. If architects and engineers are opting for super-cheap overseas outsourcing, regardless of legitimacy, then shame on them, because I expect better from them. But you still can't stop it.

[AJLynn]

I do not agree with this. Average salary of a architectural visualizer with 1-2 years experience in India is 4800 $ per YEAR. Artists with nice portfolio and experience even ask for more.

 

I think you should be making over $50k. There's a lot of talent in India and it's undervalued by US standards. This leads to two things I find troubling:

 

1. Price competition is skewed by the lower costs in India and some other countries. Even by working more efficiently or coming up with innovative ways to do business, a company with all US-based employees has no way of competing on price. This is what I meant by "uncalibrated" - it breaks the system.

 

2. The outsourced labor is undervalued. A person in India can't make the same money by doing the same work as a person in the US.

[Fran]

Additionally: Rather than approach the situation with tariffs and such, in a vain attempt to protect against competition, there should be certain standards set forth in the industry. We have all read or heard about cases where large A&E firms have been brought down when it is discovered that of their 1000 seats of AutoCAD, only one was licensed?

 

The AIA and AEC should require that all licensed professionals use licensed software and pay a fair wage; and that they in turn be responsible for ensuring that their contractors and subcontractors do the same. It's all about LIABILITY. A builder who hires a subcontractor, must make sure that the sub has workman's comp for their workers, or else the builder must provide it.

[Devin Johnston]

That's a very good point Fran, I agree that if there is a way to do it without using Tariffs that would be preferable. So how do you begin to get the AIA involved in such a program? Shouldn’t this be something that organizations like ASAI be involved in since part of their reason for being is to protect their members.

[AJLynn]

In 1995 the AIA adopted the following policy:

 

“Any architect desiring to promote or be promoted by the AIA through awards

programs, publications, speaking engagements, elected or appointed office, or

admission to Fellowship, must declare that they themselves and/or their firm does

not employ unpaid intern architects in their professional practice.”

 

It's not on point but it does go to show...

[ankit4d]

he outsourced labor is undervalued. A person in India can't make the same money by doing the same work as a person in the US.

 

I agree with you, I earn less than what i would have earned if i was working in U.S.

Autodesk is using strategic measure to sell there softwares in India. Most of the Companies and Freelancer in India are tracked by autodesk and they have bought legitimate softwares. Now everyone is using legal softwares here. But still we can produce cheap renders than artists in U.S due to economy structure.

 

The problem with me is my Clients based in U.S are not ready to pay me amount that you consider ethical price. If I ask for more than they say it is too high and i fear loosing client to my cheap neighborhood companies...

Clients would be ready to pay a artist 1000$ if he was in U.S but not if he was in India.

[Brian Cassil]

Now everyone is using legal softwares here.

 

By "here" do you mean your studio, or your country? If the latter, I would find that very difficult to believe.