innerdream Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 If architects and engineers are opting for super-cheap overseas outsourcing, regardless of legitimacy, then shame on them, because I expect better from them. But you still can't stop it. With all due respect you're in a fantasy world, they look the other way unless caught. Ethics in the Architectural community is a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchrender Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 OMGYG2BK No I am not, are you going to let your business go under, on your principles, and have no job, because of what you believe to be wrong. it's not my idea of fareness either believe me, it makes me sick. But what can we do, complain..it's not going to get the job done. My thinking is, use them cheap as they are , untill the business comes back on line to where one can start charging a little more. Am I so wrong...........? phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The problem with me is my Clients based in U.S are not ready to pay me amount that you consider ethical price. If I ask for more than they say it is too high and i fear loosing client to my cheap neighborhood companies... Clients would be ready to pay a artist 1000$ if he was in U.S but not if he was in India. I agree and I have a problem with the architects in cases like this. They expect sweat shop labor when outsourcing, while marketing themselves as champions of sustainability. Meanwhile practices like this, in the aggregate, cost Americans livable wages which damages our economy and makes it less likely that the architects get projects. That's not sustainability. So I say that Indian professionals doing work that would pay an American over $50k should also be making over $50k, because it offends my capitalist sensibilities and because the economic disparity hurts everybody in the long run, but I don't have any ideas about how to actually implement that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Burns Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 If I ask for more than they say it is too high and i fear loosing client to my cheap neighborhood companies... . What I don't understand why are you all undercutting each other? I've seen some of the renderings from india and they are very good. You could easily get quadruple the money for them and still be very very competitive. I realise the money you are getting for them is a good wage over there but why not make serious bucks!!!! I am unemployed here in Ireland now and for me to have a normal living I would probably need about 600 euro a week just to get by. I could do a project in a week but I would feel insulted if I had to do it for 600 euro after all the time I had spent learning how to do this stuff and my experience not to mention the cost of overheads. I am living in hope though that quality of service and workmanship wins over price in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankit4d Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 By "here" do you mean your studio, or your country? If the latter, I would find that very difficult to believe. I mean country for "here". Since last few months Autodesk are tracking people who are in Arch Viz field. One of my friend left a company which was using legal softwares and joined another company which was using illegal softwares. After few days autodesk officials tracked him and came to his new company and they had to buy software. I know many Freelancers who were tracked by autodesk and were forced to buy legal softwares. Small companies and freelancers still use illegal software but there influence on international market is less and someday they will also be tracked by autodesk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinman Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Reading hilarious threads like these are often the highlight of my day. The constant railing against the forces of supply and demand by those who repeatedly profess a lockstep obeisance with the powers of the marketplace brings joy to my world-weary bones. So someone is charging less than you. I assume by the 70 odd rants on this thread that you feel that your client is agreeing to hire those people because your client has inadequate information to make an informed decision – for that is all price is: information on perceived value. Perhaps they are price dumping, or stealing software, or producing shoddy work, or otherwise killing puppies. So tell your client that. Give him adequate information to make an ‘informed’ decision. Let your client know that you charge more because you pay for software, don’t price dump, don’t produce shoddy work, and don’t kill puppies. See what your client says. I’m pretty certain I know the answer. Huge chunks of what we do are now commodities. Get used to it – it’s not going to change. If you can’t offer what your clients want at a price that your client wants, well, then, you are toast. You can rail against the ‘lack of ethics’ (whatever that means) in architecture all you want, but it wont change a single thing. Offer what your client wants at a price your client wants. Don’t know what that is? Ask them. Can't do that? Then be like the horse-drawn wagon makers a hundred years ago, and start making cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Then be like the horse-drawn wagon makers a hundred years ago, and start making cars. That hasn't panned out so well either here in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankit4d Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 What I don't understand why are you all undercutting each other? I've seen some of the renderings from india and they are very good. You could easily get quadruple the money for them and still be very very competitive. I realise the money you are getting for them is a good wage over there but why not make serious bucks!!!! This is a hard fact but most of the clients prefer low cost over quality. If i increase my amount to quadruple than i will be left with no work. I charge little high for my work as compared to other companies in India, but my clients are very satisfied and happy with my work and we have long term relation, they don't mind paying me little extra for there peace of mind. But it is difficult for me to get new clients. I often recieve quotations from overseas clients and after recieving my quote they never reply back. they would have sent mails to many people in India and company with the best quote would have got the project. I am unemployed here in Ireland now and for me to have a normal living I would probably need about 600 euro a week just to get by. I could do a project in a week but I would feel insulted if I had to do it for 600 euro after all the time I had spent learning how to do this stuff and my experience not to mention the cost of overheads. I am living in hope though that quality of service and workmanship wins over price in the long run. I do not raise price because my life is going pretty well and i do not want to be unemployed. In india we do not get any kind of unemployment fund from government or other sources, so if i am unemployed i have to survive on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leoA4D Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Give him adequate information to make an ‘informed’ decision. Let your client know that you charge more because you pay for software, don’t price dump, don’t produce shoddy work, and don’t kill puppies. You can rail against the ‘lack of ethics’ (whatever that means)... My bet is you know at least a little about the meaning of ethics or you are willing to tell tales to your clients and you do kill puppies. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I do not raise price because my life is going pretty well and i do not want to be unemployed. In india we do not get any kind of unemployment fund from government or other sources, so if i am unemployed i have to survive on my own. You're not alone. I am a sole proprietor, no insurance, no unemployment, no help at all from my government. People like me are the economic engine of this country and we are left high and dry. That's another topic and another rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Erstad Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Reading hilarious threads like these are often the highlight of my day. The constant railing against the forces of supply and demand by those who repeatedly profess a lockstep obeisance with the powers of the marketplace brings joy to my world-weary bones. I'll agree with that sentiment, thanks Ian. Does anyone here in this forum really think that with a global economy in shambles and chaos, ever improving software and app interoperability coupled with faster hardware, ever decreasing production schedules that things would remain remotely the same? For some it has gotten better, others not so much and now the realization is creeping in. In the future, do you think your clients need of cost and turnaround will trump his/her desire for artistic ability or buying local? Perhaps that choice is determined higher in the food chain. Project these scenarios out 5 years, 10 years. What is it going to be - free markets or controlled protectionism? I think the genie is out of the bottle now, besides would firms that have found solutions to the current environment business go back? Nearly all forms of industry are or will soon be facing these same issues. How one reacts and moves forward will determine your viability in a given market place. Looking for some magic bullet to come from some other entity is fools gold it would seem to me. Good luck, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anindia Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 This is a hard fact but most of the clients prefer low cost over quality. If i increase my amount to quadruple than i will be left with no work. I charge little high for my work as compared to other companies in India, but my clients are very satisfied and happy with my work and we have long term relation, they don't mind paying me little extra for there peace of mind. But it is difficult for me to get new clients. I often recieve quotations from overseas clients and after recieving my quote they never reply back. they would have sent mails to many people in India and company with the best quote would have got the project. it is the same thing happening with me and i think with many of us. In many cases i have faced my clients telling me -my rate should be more competetive. and in my case this competetive rate was never more than $600.(as considered by my client/clients). why???????? becuse i am providing this service from india?? i am not claiming i produce high/best quality renders.( i am really a fan of some artists of this forum and i dream some day i can make renders like them)but i also know the fact,if i get some US guys who is delivering same quality jobs as i do, will be paid a much better fees. now who is responsible for this? myself or my clients. the system is responsible for this which was started a 100 yrs back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I am tired and depressed from reading this thread, can we close it and go watch Seinfeld? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Erstad Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 now who is responsible for this? myself or my clients. the system is responsible for this which was started a 100 yrs back. It may be a responsibility of both, though without a clear understanding of both conversations or your business presence or marketing niche impossible to say. The system you speak of perhaps has roots even further back into the 15-16th centuries, with the effect of exploitation focusing even more so with the advent of the East India Trading company. You are feeling the effects of geo-economic and/or racial discrimination I think. This is unfortunate though not surprising to me at all - don't get me started on this, as you may know the US has a bit of experience with racial inequality. Globalization of this industry is still relatively new and appropriate etiquette and sensitivity is probably lacking. I know from my personal experiences with that whenever the topic of outsourcing has come up, primary reasoning is cost and/or turnaround time. Maybe you could elaborate from your perspective on this. It is good that you have shared your professional experiences of this sensitive issue in this particular forum, I would urge you and others to continue to help further the understanding of our global environment via dialog here and beyond. Cheers, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 No I am not, are you going to let your business go under, on your principles, and have no job, because of what you believe to be wrong. I'm not saying you’re wrong to be trying to save your business anyone would, but it's ironic that you’re looking for leads on outsourcing in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anindia Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It is good that you have shared your professional experiences of this sensitive issue in this particular forum, I would urge you and others to continue to help further the understanding of our global environment via dialog here and beyond. Cheers, Scott Dear Scott, i don't know what is awaiting for us in future- i mean all of us from east/west/middle. As we consider this is a open market and anybody can play in any project irrespective of geographical boundaries. The same "low cost labour management" is happening everywhere.i have seen many companies are opening up their branches in india/china/malaysia to get skilled labour in low cost. It's a mutual process. i personally feel there will be always a set of people/clients who will never go for overseas service providers and there will be the other one who will go for the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippu Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 so i hope that ends another outsourcing thread for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchrender Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 If I were to look at the future of our business at present in the current economic climate. I am watching architects and technicians, draw 2D after 2D study elevations, and then i have to export them out clean them up, and model the same thing. BIM is the answer, and the sooner we get in to it the sooner our jobs will look less redundant. Now just because you can Model, dose not make you a good 3D artist. Knowing what makes a good final render, and also how to render , and the old school rules of suject mater, foreground and all that , which does not come over night . Experience will stand to us all. If I could produce a BIM model, and render it out i would put mabe 3-5 people out of work, against the standard traditional setup. phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic H Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 oh gog - i just read the whole thread just get on with it i reckon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaneis Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just a note to thank both Ankit and Anirban for your valuable input. Very informative and thanks to you, I have a better understanding of the situation you and your colleagues are dealing with day-in, day-out. Your sincerity and frankness is very much appreciated. Best of luck, S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ankit4d Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just a note to thank both Ankit and Anirban for your valuable input. Very informative and thanks to you, I have a better understanding of the situation you and your colleagues are dealing with day-in, day-out. Your sincerity and frankness is very much appreciated. Best of luck, S. Welcome Shane. Things are difficult here, competition is high, we are also facing effects of recession. Since last few month its tough time for my business development team. But definitely there are no sweatshops in India as quoted by Ihab. I had worked with some great companies in India, and i had seen very good work environment, and nice perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyST Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I must advise you that the whole "3d business" is not to last long. with idiot proof programs such as sketchup and artlantis advancing, and even professional tools such as mental ray getting simpler by the day (even the vray sun/sky), the whole industry is getting cheaper, with only the programming firms benefiting (thanks to broader audiences). 3d studio has advanced enormously in the past 15 years, and the hardware became so cheap that virtually every one of us owns a render farm. imagine the technology to come in the next 10-15 years? 32 cores anyone? sketchup with vray proxys and turbosquid? does that mean that the public would be more educated to recognise a "professional" 3d? I doubt it. architects are pretty much happy with simple models achievable with sketchup@vray for their internal competitions, while the big investors who require the fancy photo realistic 3ds are to illiterate to notice the subtle differences and the increase in quality that is measurable in 1/10s of a percent... we have to admit it... the rookies are catching up real fast... and who will care for the 1% of quality more we can offer for 20 times the cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian P Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 seems to be a lot of worry over 1 average render (the atrium lift shot)and 3 naff ones if you ask me, yes the prices are cheap, but people generally can tell the difference and will appreciate quality and good service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan J Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) I'm thinking that after this last round of downsizing and the economy in the toilet, many architects and designers will move on to other more stable professions (Property Management, Facilities...); college students will rethink their plans for majors (something with a better cost benefit ratio); and every facet of this industry will see a job gone fore ever. When we come out of this mess, many real estate development companies will hire on a few project architects, project managers and construction managers who will work as a team to coordinate the bulk of the design, construction docs, specs, renderings and other grunt work to the lowest cost foreign producer who can design the "Brand" of the corporate empire. The soft costs are easy outsourced. Even the entertainment industry is using much of India's Bollywood studios to for their CG work. Talent is cheap and smart business's exploit it. That's my gloomy take on the subject. Edited March 9, 2009 by Dan J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bird Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Since we're all in such a good mood I thought I'd share some more related info I received in an email from China yesterday. I was sent a bunch of images, 19 jpegs (here's 3 of them), then I replied and asked them for pricing and they gave me a pdf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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