BrianKitts Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I take it everyone on this thread is happy then? Probably just those with jobs at the moment..... Was having a conversation with a designer in one of our offices commenting on the project he's been working on now for about 3 years. Synopsis of the conversation was that those of us who do visualization for the company are lucky because we never get bored being on one project for really long time lengths ... we work on it for a month or so than jump back later down the line, keeps things interesting....which I agreed saying it really makes the job enjoyable, but he trumped the whole conversation by saying..... "Yeah it really stinks work a project to death so long for so long, but right now, I'm just happy to have any job at at all!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius Wilhere Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Man, this thread started dead serious and as I have read through it to the end I am dying of laughter. I guess the fire kind of blew itself out. My solution to this problem? First off, I suck at rendering. I've gotten better, but probably most of you fart better renderings than I am capable of even imagining. So the whoever, whereever in the world will always get the job which I simply cannot do and cannot compete with. However, I can throw together an artful and emotional presentation better than most people I know with music, sound effects, graphics and special effects (as well as donuts and bacon when required) to sell a concept. I don't know what most of the people in this thread are bitching about. You guys are AMAZING artists. Market and sell that skill! If you can render as beautifully as you can then learning something like the Adobe Creative Suite would be a yawn for you and branching into animation with music and graphic effects would simply be an extension of your artistic skills. Because the future is NOT in still image renderings. The future is in animated presentations with emotional impacts that sell the concept to the client. And no matter how cheap the imitation is, people will always want the Picasso. Regards, DSW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizzy Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 please dont get offtopic again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I vote to just close this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Because the future is NOT in still image renderings. The future is in animated presentations with emotional impacts that sell the concept to the client. DSW Exactly what I told my wife a few months ago. With production costs getting cheaper, us getting more experienced with animations, large LCD displays are now in most homes even in poor countries, it is very conceivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 I vote to just close this thread I find it hard to imagine a topic that is more directly applicable to our profession and the future of it than this one. I don't understand why people would rather ignore the issues than deal with them, there is a solution. This thread has gone very far off topic at times but it has generated some good ideas which I've collected below. I think for developed countries to continue to compete a combination of all of these ideas needs to happen. A highly integrated process is vital to survival. A process where the visualizations are part of the design pipeline, rather than a separate pipeline in itself. You are all so negative .... All of us have to be more flexible in working flow, money deals and a significant improvement is a must. ) So much of what we do here requires personal contact. Verbal direction, pointing, physical samples, napkin sketches, etc. We are a part of the design. To try and package that up and send it across the world, even with all the telecomunication, and even if someone spoke native english, it just wouldn't work. We tried it, and it didn't. This is the perfect case where a tariff would be a good thing, don't get me wrong I hate taxes but in this case it's the only way to guarantee fair competition. My point is that if you're an architecture firm buying renderings - for the run of the mill normal procedure you're gonna go overseas, and in house, because it is cheaper to produce basic design process maintenance renderings that way. But when it comes time to market the project - those renderings (with rare exceptions)- don't cut it and you have to hire someone, and that person needs to pamper you like a waiter or waitress in a fancy restaurant. Back to the primary question: Are these rendering prices real and possible? Yes, but not for very long. With the slide of the Dollar, the rise of India and China, and the ongoing economic simulation that is the world economy these prices can not hold. The immediate next 5-10 years will be bad for this particular business, but things will equal out. My take on this whole situation is rather simple: Trade/competition is good, but this is UNFAIR trade. People in developed nations simply can not compete with near slave-labor rates of people in countries like China, India and other such nations. The only way to remotely "solve" this problem of unfair trade is to enact some form of tariff. Not crazy high tariffs, but enough to raise prices on these imported items to a level that can allow people in developed nations to at least be competitive. If you provide something better, something faster, something more responsive/accessible, then you ask what you think is fair. The client will decide whether to buy it or not. The playing field is NOT EVEN even. all Low Cost 3d vizzer companys should have Their software registrations checked by Autodesk b4 being allowed To post work solicitations. or at least after posting (jest joking, well maybe NOT) Additionally: .... there should be certain standards set forth in the industry. We have all read or heard about cases where large A&E firms have been brought down when it is discovered that of their 1000 seats of AutoCAD, only one was licensed? The AIA and AEC should require that all licensed professionals use licensed software and pay a fair wage; and that they in turn be responsible for ensuring that their contractors and subcontractors do the same. It's all about LIABILITY. A builder who hires a subcontractor, must make sure that the sub has workman's comp for their workers, or else the builder must provide it. So I say that Indian professionals doing work that would pay an American over $50k should also be making over $50k, because it offends my capitalist sensibilities and because the economic disparity hurts everybody in the long run, but I don't have any ideas about how to actually implement that. So someone is charging less than you. I assume by the 70 odd rants on this thread that you feel that your client is agreeing to hire those people because your client has inadequate information to make an informed decision – for that is all price is: information on perceived value. Perhaps they are price dumping, or stealing software, or producing shoddy work, or otherwise killing puppies. So tell your client that. Give him adequate information to make an ‘informed’ decision. Let your client know that you charge more because you pay for software, don’t price dump, don’t produce shoddy work, and don’t kill puppies. See what your client says. I’m pretty certain I know the answer. Knowing what makes a good final render, and also how to render , and the old school rules of suject mater, foreground and all that , which does not come over night . Experience will stand to us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I didn't say anything important it seems :(O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpii@vpii.com Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Hi guys I found your thread today and found it of interest, I have been on the loosing side of very low unthinkable fees in the last few months. My take on it is piracy of software. I know some here stand by it does not matter. My thought it is just to easy to get into the 3D business. You do not even have to leave your house. Just log onto the internet grab your software and you are in the business in a few hours. There is little of no effort. If software could not be pirated it would cut down on the competition and make upstarts think hard and long do I want to spend on a business with no guarantees of return. I am sure people are downloading right now some will try 3D and stay with it some will move on to something else. All I ask is a even playing field. Never going to happen I am afraid. Not alot of other industry that makes it so easy to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Hi guys I found your thread today and found it of interest, I have been on the loosing side of very low unthinkable fees in the last few months. My take on it is piracy of software. I know some here stand by it does not matter. My thought it is just to easy to get into the 3D business. You do not even have to leave your house. Just log onto the internet grab your software and you are in the business in a few hours. There is little of no effort. If software could not be pirated it would cut down on the competition and make upstarts think hard and long do I want to spend on a business with no guarantees of return. I am sure people are downloading right now some will try 3D and stay with it some will move on to something else. All I ask is a even playing field. Never going to happen I am afraid. Not alot of other industry that makes it so easy to get into. I disagree. As somebody else on this forum posted, software is one of the smaller costs of setting up a visualization studio, certainly not a deal breaker. Salary is the hot potato (including the self-salary of a one-man operation). Unfortunately, salaries cannot be compared like for like due to different currency values. So, some people have a more expensive business model. And no, you cannot start a successful 3d business 'in a few hours'. Not unless you are using the fabled 'one button render' system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vpii@vpii.com Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 And no, you cannot start a successful 3d business 'in a few hours'. Not unless you are using the fabled 'one button render' system. successful 3d business no, but a birth of one yes. My point is there is very easy to start in 3D. I am not talking about a successful 3d studio, It is the type of businees that offer up 100 images. There not going to compete for larger projects but will take buisness from small 1 man shops like me. My quailty has to go up to over come that but the market will only allow so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandmanNinja Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 I think if we're to keep this thread open, we need to keep it on topic, thus the cleanup by the tireless Mods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippu Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 oh well i just got a email from russian company whose prices are on par with the original post and the quality is on par with the best posted here ... now i should be worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The Russians are emailing the Indians? Holy cow, now we have come full circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippu Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 holy cow sounds very apt , btw i have got spam from america and britain also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 holy cow sounds very apt , btw i have got spam from america and britain also Yes, the assumption is that this is all going one way. I hadnt even considered that British and American companies would be approaching countries with a weaker currency. [(insert 'Off-topic disclaimer' here) And I hadnt considered my 'Holy cow' phrase very deeply either. As someone who has spent some time in India, I know where you're coming from. I meant it more in the "Holy cow Batman, there's bacon on the donuts" kind of way. I hope no offense was taken, there was none intended] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippu Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 none taken , i am not one of "them" , i am sure they did not realize that i was in india , but spam is spam ....and yes i do know of some work going the other way , the really big ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 while in the US, I did a rendering once for an indian architectural firm. They wanted top quality renderings, and had the money to spend and hired the company I worked for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 well, I will have to revive this thread, I am forced. A guy who hired me to do a $250 interior and a $250 exterior of a three storey six appartment building in Lebanon met with me yesterday, he asked for 3d floor plan of the building. He said he doesn't have to pay for it becuase it is in the contract. there is no contract by the way. he meant that since I already got $250 from him to do a living room interior, I shouldn't charge him more to transform that into a full floorplan showing the two appartments. He said that this project has no profit for him too. this building contains 6 apartments of three bedrooms each, and real estate prices in Lebanon are the highest they have been since recorded history, and he says he isn't profiting. I couldn't cry, so I laughed like crazy. I stil am laughing inside. time to open that donut shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 well, I will have to revive this thread, I am forced. A guy who hired me to do a $250 interior and a $250 exterior of a three storey six appartment building in Lebanon met with me yesterday, he asked for 3d floor plan of the building. He said he doesn't have to pay for it becuase it is in the contract. there is no contract by the way. he meant that since I already got $250 from him to do a living room interior, I shouldn't charge him more to transform that into a full floorplan showing the two appartments. He said that this project has no profit for him too. this building contains 6 apartments of three bedrooms each, and real estate prices in Lebanon are the highest they have been since recorded history, and he says he isn't profiting. I couldn't cry, so I laughed like crazy. I stil am laughing inside. time to open that donut shop. Next he'll say you owe him money for allowing you to work on his masterpiece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazdaz Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 well, I will have to revive this thread, I am forced. A guy who hired me to do a $250 interior and a $250 exterior of a three storey six appartment building in Lebanon met with me yesterday, he asked for 3d floor plan of the building. He said he doesn't have to pay for it becuase it is in the contract. there is no contract by the way. he meant that since I already got $250 from him to do a living room interior, I shouldn't charge him more to transform that into a full floorplan showing the two appartments. He said that this project has no profit for him too. this building contains 6 apartments of three bedrooms each, and real estate prices in Lebanon are the highest they have been since recorded history, and he says he isn't profiting. I couldn't cry, so I laughed like crazy. I stil am laughing inside. time to open that donut shop. The MiddleEast is known for haggling - every price is negotiable. If he wants it for "free" and you normally charge $XXX then possibly meet him 1/2-way. I have not been following all your posts on this subject, but if you already have everything lit, textured and modelled out, while not offer up a floorplan at a discounted rate since it might not be a ton extra work. I would also be curious what kind of money $250 is in your area? Is that equivalent to an "average" Lebanese-person's weekly salary? Or monthly salary? Is that considered "good money" over there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Beirut is as expensive as any advanced capital despite our major problems with basic services, and cars are 45% more expensive than in the US. $250 is a lot of money for poor people here, but not so for middle class people. for example my internet costs me around $100/month, in the US I used to pay $25, non brand name jeans cost $40 plus, original Levis can cost over $200 if you can find it. my monthly house payments are $2000/month for a 3 bedroom apartment in a less than mediocre zone (high class Lebanese people don't even come into the street I live in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 I am no longer fully involved in the viz industry. After completing graduate school 4 yrs ago, I have been completing my internship towards becoming a licensed architect. I still do in house viz work as we move through various design phases and recently I have been a coordinator of out sourcing our renderings on higher profile projects - don't spam me, I wont respond. On a recent competition project I was asked to find "The Best". Being involved with CGArchitect, that was quite easy for me. I compiled a list 5 firms internationally that I felt were the most qualified to delivered high caliber competition images complete with samples of their work - most of it absolutely stunning and extremely high profile. I forwarded this to the Principals in charge and was told to hire one - the selected firm happens to be a world leader in the viz industry. When the proposal came back to us, everything changed. The Principals were no longer interested in "The Best" they now wanted "the best we can get for a very small amount of money considering the time line and the amount of work involved cause the design is going to change until the last possible second". The end result was that we got the imagery on time and it was much less expensive than the proposal I solicited - The cost difference was a factor of 10. But the imagery was of far inferior quality. Frankly, it was bad, but it was still better than any of the other submissions. We spent a tremendous amount of money and effort on our entry - even with the budget viz services. We won the competition and the commission. I don't have a moral or an ending to this story. I'm really just trying to flesh out the other side of the story for people following this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The Principals were no longer interested in "The Best" they now wanted "the best we can get for a very small amount of money considering the time line and the amount of work involved cause the design is going to change until the last possible second". I agree and I think that's why the effect on the arch viz industry in the US is exponentially worse. A drop of 30% for architecture firms equals a drop of 60% for arch viz firms. Most of the work that we get now is for competitions. The architects are paying for 3d out of pocket so their preference will be to do it in-house or go directly overseas. The bigger firms will still use some of the arch viz studios because they have deeper pockets and won't leave anything to chance. But, even they will haggle for the best possible price and delay final payments as long as possible. If their is one thing that I have learned in this recession it is that we have to be very lean and effective to survive. Long gone are the days that quality alone would get you by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The bigger firms will still use some of the arch viz studios because they have deeper pockets and won't leave anything to chance. I'm not sure I fully agree with this Eddie. We are a relatively small office. The office we were partnered with on this particular project is a large multi-national. THEY were the ones arguing for outsourcing to China. Our office maintained the stance of securing the best possible imagery. It seems to me that sometimes, its the larger more corporate places that are more focused on the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 It seems to me that sometimes, its the larger more corporate places that are more focused on the bottom line. And that is why they are large and corporate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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