Unbeleavable

[EddieLeon]

The office we were partnered with on this particular project is a large multi-national. THEY were the ones arguing for outsourcing to China. Our office maintained the stance of securing the best possible imagery.

 

First, I appreciate that your firm was rooting for the local guys. Thanks!

Also, I am fully aware that all the big firms are sending their work to China and I realize that at the end of the day it's the bottom line that matters. I am not claiming that they are our salvation. I just know from experience that they can't always send all of it overseas and get the results that they need. They are simply not structured to manage the relationships and work-flow properly.

 

By the way, the outsourcing topic has always been a double-edged sword for me since I own a studio in China. But, I do feel that by being a hybrid operation we have been able to remain competitive. Things are still very tough though.

[ihabkal]

I am seriously thinking of moving to China now.

y the way I bought a magazine 18 months ago, called the Canadian Architect, when I was in Canada, I started reading it a couple of weeks ago, yes I know 17.5 months late, I was in a cultural shock, and I found this article in the magazine so I looked for it online

http://www.cdnarchitect.com/issues/ISarticle.asp?id=186983&story_id=23363152105&issue=05012007&PC=

titled "The High Cost of Fee-Bidding"

I suggest you read it if you have 5 minutes to spare, very insightful.

[Tommy L]

Ihab and Suzette,

I would advise you to take this offline and continue in private.

[ihabkal]

Hi Tom,

I agree with you on that is a private matter, I can't post my e-mail address here because I want my privacy, also since Suzette has only 1 post she can't receive private messages form me on cgarchitect, I don't know if she can send me, if so please Suzette send me a private message with your private e-mail address, after that edit your post and delete all names.

 

edit: I was able to send you a private e-mail with my e-mail, just e-mail me directly any concerns or questions...

Edited April 25, 2009 by ihabkal

[suz]

Thanks Guys - will do

[TomD_Arch]

Sadly I feel that our profession is going to become obsolete, we will be out of business all of us in a couple of years, and US software makers will follow us into bankrupcy as no one will buy their software anymore.

The only jobs left would be employment at large Viz firms who still see the value of having inhouse artists, and sweat shops in india and china.

I will then open my donut shop and you are all invited for free donuts...

You bring up a good point about the software companys. I wonder how much of this farmed out work is produced on legally licensed software? So,when the visual. company's in the USA are no longer paying for software and the profits dry up do the software company's disappear or do they fight back against pirating? As technology advances so will the way Visualization is created and if your cheap India company cant afford to keep and cant use pirated software maybe things turn around???

[Tommy L]

The price of software has NOTHING to do with the cheap price of work coming out of India and China. Its the price of labor (due to the LOCAL cost of living). I bought Max and Vray for around $4500 (neither expires). But I have invested countless hours in my work. The same is true for any viz business. You add up the amount of hours x hourly pay in USA vs India, there is your equation.

If you are seriously saying that a tax deductible expenditure of $4500 is making or breaking a business here in the states, then that business is no longer viable anyway.

Also, I would guesstimate that there is a fairly high percentage of freelancers here in the states who have hooky software and get paid on Paypal or in cash to avoid the taxman. 'Pointing the finger at the Asians' for undermining our comfortable lifestyle to subsidize their own resurgence in the world economy and get their own fair share of the pie is not really a valid argument. Kind of like saying:

"Hey, but you're poor, why cant you just stay poor? Come on man, Ive gotten used to you being poor, you cant go moving the goalposts now. Ive got really, really used to being able to buy a TV for more than you earn in a year and not really feel it, how come you want things to change? I mean, I know if your charges come in line with ours then no-one in your own country can afford it, but hey man, you've got to let me compete..."

[Devin Johnston]

"Hey, but you're poor, why cant you just stay poor? Come on man, Ive gotten used to you being poor, you cant go moving the goalposts now. Ive got really, really used to being able to buy a TV for more than you earn in a year and not really feel it, how come you want things to change? I mean, I know if your charges come in line with ours then no-one in your own country can afford it, but hey man, you've got to let me compete..."

 

This would be fine if they confined their business to their country but they aren't and I for one don't want my wadges reduced to what a guy in China or India makes. The only way to fix this problem is to either engage in protectionism or have a one world currency and I'm not in favor of the second option.

[Tommy L]

This would be fine if they confined their business to their country but they aren't and I for one don't want my wadges reduced to what a guy in China or India makes. The only way to fix this problem is to either engage in protectionism or have a one world currency and I'm not in favor of the second option.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one Im afraid. I dont think we can start picking and choosing what businesses are allowed to be international and which are not. For one thing its completely impossible to regulate and secondly its vastly unfair. As architectural imagery is barely even recognized as an industry in its own right, there is not much chance any kind of internationally recognized government regulation will be passed to protect the US renderers (especially as we cant even get copyright properly addressed across the whole creative industry). Thats before we even consider the matter of enforcement.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is international competition (and has been for a long time) for the work we are used to picking up. If the rules change in this environment, you cant just say your taking your ball home. You have to adapt.

 

There really still is room for everyone. You need to find clients that want a local service. Look to branch into other fields, look at print advertising, tv work, crossover work with photographers, stage design, music video, product rendering, rapid prototyping, realtime, stereoscopy, any industry that will use stimulus money... Diversify as much as you can. Its hard work, but it should reap rewards. 3d is a growing business arena, even if 3d is currently diminishing in the domestic architecture market.

[Alex York]

in my experience a london client will always prefer to deal with a london-based studio or individual when it comes to their work. (same applies for anywhere else of course). point being, local work is always important. and communication is key to the success of a project.

 

a client will not be too happy to find that the viz studio they're using for their high-profile project can't make the meeting tomorrow because they're 1000 miles away in a dark and dingy office in a rundown suburb of some unheard of district that barely speaks the client's language.

 

trouble is, you have to convince the client of this, as the money they'd save is always a real challenge to overcome.

[ihabkal]

I live in Lebanon, which is still in Asia so I guess I am Asian/Arab, ethnicity aside, they sell 3dsmax 2010 for 3 dollars by the corner, if you go into the refugee camp of Sabra, you can get 3dsmax for 66 cents, Autocad 2010 too. We have hundreds of Architecture graduates who have used cracked software during their studies and after they get their degrees. there are only a handful of prestigious projects whch are done by artists who are connected politically or by British and US firms (because of the quality needed) no matter the cost, and few dozen mediocre ones around $500 the project, and a few other dozens of crappy projects which their owners don't pay more than $250. I can't really fit anywhere in the Lebanese market because my quality is as good as the US and British artists, but I am a non connected person who can only rely on talent, I can't do the $250 projects because I have my pride, so all what is left for me is to compete with around 30 thousand architects who graduated in the last ten years who all use cracked software, 99% of them never lived in the US like I did, were never seniors in a company making a lot of money, and who think that $250 is a lot, a LOT of money. (the kind of money someone could get killed for here (I have a funny story about that if you want to hear it)

so I do blame us, the Asians, for ruining our market by accepting cheap work, and now we are doing the same for the US market, which at the end will destroy this profession.

Edited April 27, 2009 by ihabkal

[Wreck]

this thread is depressing

[Devin Johnston]

this thread is depressing

so is life

[Claudio Branch]

 

so is life

 

 

Cheer up Devin!

 

You have an uncanny ability to create threads that resonate with the entire CGA community. Those who participate in your thread are in need of catharsis.

 

You are like an on-line shoulder to cry upon.

 

BTW, if I have missed your birthday this year...Happy Birthday!