maryam Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I saw this article in arch daily today: http://www.archdaily.com/19360/12-reasons-to-refuse-to-render/ Summary: 1. You Will Lose Track of Time 2. More Demands on Your Time 3. The Employer Doesn’t Have Knowledge of the Software 4. You Will Find Yourself Re-doing Things Over and Over 5. You Have to Sweat the Details 6. You Are On Your Own: No One Else Can Help You 7. You May Have Knowledge in One Software But Not Another 8. You Lose Your Personal Space 9. You Won’t Be Working on Important Tasks 10. You Will Learn Less 11. You Will Be Under-appreciated 12. Professionals Do It Better what do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dp Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) having been seen and done that................ yes i lost a good portion of the past 15 years on a career i'm no longer involved with i can pinpoint the problems starting when g.i. became affordable all of a sudden pretty well anybody could begin to produce well illuminated 3d having left visualisation behind in 2007 i found i had become so burnt out that i still have not had the urge aside from some small commissions to boot up max for fun/study a lot of these complaints also come from the intern/junior/guest overseas worker - the people who took the time out to pick up on skills and are pigeonholed i've found through a long and varied career path in design and construction that you make your own luck and you will always need to keep striving to be better no matter what you are involved with - currently i'm involved in project management again and right now i'm needing to be back to speed in project management software - a mile away from 3dsmax but thats where the $$ moved to for me ignoring recession rendering would not be a wise career move now at least i finish working a 18.00 most evenings (5 days a week) Edited April 13, 2009 by 3dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I suppose a few of these are true, but a few are wrong also. This is written from someone who wants to be an architect, not someone who is an artist. If your goal is become a registered architect, then rendering is a waste of your time. If your goal is to become a skilled artist, then rendering is valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryam Posted April 12, 2009 Author Share Posted April 12, 2009 I agree some of it are true. To me it looks like the excuses of some one who is new to the 3d modeling soft wares and impatient.he wants to live an easy life and get his salary at the end of each month,and i strongly feel he has no passion for architecture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I don't agree with the "avoid at all cost" headline, but after doing this for 12 years, as an employee and as a freelancer, in the US and in the Middle East, I can prove to you from bitter experience that every point he makes is valid. If I was still young and had my future ahead of me, I would have found a way to move to the US or Canada and became either a zoologist or a pediatrician (these also have no future in Lebanon). because I found out I love animals and nature much more than renderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 he wants to live an easy life and get his salary at the end of each monthLEFT] Don't we all want an easy life? All my friends, no not friends because I don't have time to make friends with renderings taking over my life, all my relatives think I am stupid for spending all my weekends and holidays behind the monitor. They, however, are not shy of asking to borrow money when they need it. But really, who said life should be lived in a way that is hard and not easy? despite living my childhood and early youth and now my manhood in a country where a war has and can reupt anyday, and despite my chronic depression, I still believe life can be easy somehow. Maybe in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
znotlin Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 What is it about architects who think that architecture is the end all be all of creativity? They seem to not acknowledge that other forms of design or craft might indeed be satisfying to do, including rendering. Their myopia consistently amazes me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 The article is absolutely correct. I say this from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryam Posted April 13, 2009 Author Share Posted April 13, 2009 It is because Creativity has no time. It does not mean to be workaholic.there are certain time in our job (architecture and viz) that we have no choice but to stay over night.Some times I wake up, thinking of the project that I am very much involved! or reflections amaze me when i go out on a rainy day. 3d modeling is more time consuming than a 2d drawing,and you can not get away easy with a crap design Doesn't it help to do a better design? there are technics that you can present a conceptual design to your client and don't need to add unnecessary details. This article is true in some aspects,certain things are not fair and will change in time. but it also states of a person who does not like what he is doing.I really don't understand why this was on arch daily published. it is a personal judgement (IMO) of some one has failed (in 3d modeling or rendering?!!) and is blaming software, architecture,competition.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmccoy Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I agree with this on almost all accounts. Having worked for both a rendering company and an in-house 3d department I can say that if you want to do 3d architectural visualization then you are best to work for a company that does just that. Doing 3d in-house for an architecture company you have to deal with an enormous amount of crap that takes away from being able to do your job. Unrealistic expectations, misunderstandings, expecting you to be a miracle worker are all a part of doing 3d in-house. Working for a company that specializes in 3d makes a world of difference. because you typically have the same dreams goals, a desire to become better at 3d, shared technical knowledge, etc... the list goes on and on. I feel that the main difference between the two working environments comes down to the ultimate goal of each. typically, doing 3d in-house you are working more on the development of the design. working for an architectural visualization company you deal with the final finished product. Just my two cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I liked this from the responses: "That must be the most ridiculous article ever published! All of those 12 points are just the steps you have to take WHILE you learn to render or modelling. Once you can do it, then you don’t cry in such miserable way. You could say the same about building models or drawing in 2d “he made me trim the line again”! … No question that Marc Joseph is part of “Young Architects” and not “Experienced Architects”. If he knew what he is talking about he would not forget that professional render’ studios lack the “architect eye”, and their renders might look real, but when an architect makes them, they just look better. 1. You Will Lose Track of Time -> as long as you make it to the deadline, no big deal. 2. More Demands on Your Time -> If you don’t like the challenge, apply to Blockbuster or similar… 3. The Employer Doesn’t Have Knowledge of the Software -> That’s why you are capable of talking and communicating with your boss! Besides, if he knew you would get the job either, so better like that. 4. You Will Find Yourself Re-doing Things Over and Over -> …which is the way to do better stuff, no project comes out from the first attempt. 5. You Have to Sweat the Details -> Here I think you are just using a bad software, try moving away from sketch up… 6. You Are On Your Own: No One Else Can Help You -> If you aren’t good enough to deal with the work, go back to the studies and you’ll find what you are missing! 7. You May Have Knowledge in One Software But Not Another -> Then learn the next one, you monkey! One software won’t help you for 50years until you retire!!! 8. You Lose Your Personal Space -> If so, Mr Joseph you have some serious lack of personality, stand up for your space! 9. You Won’t Be Working on Important Tasks -> that will only happen if you are not better than the rest on doing stuff, you’ll be always spot out for what you can do. 10. You Will Learn Less -> If you rule your learning by what you said in point 7, no wonder! 11. You Will Be Under-appreciated -> that is because of your lack of self confidence, only. A good render will be very appreciated and you too because you did it! 12. Professionals Do It Better -> already answered to that. What an annoying article to publish!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 5. You Have to Sweat the Details -> Here I think you are just using a bad software, try moving away from sketch up… Hourra! I am glad I am not the only one who thinks that about Sketchup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Hourra! I am glad I am not the only one who thinks that about Sketchup. I'm with you on that one, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 You're all missing the point. This article isn't for aspiring 3D guys, it's for junior architects (the most underappreciated form of life). Junior architects don't want to get better at rendering. They want to become senior architects. The way to do this is for them to practice working on architecture, but senior architects keep giving the junior architects rendering work (which is not architecture work) to do. The better the junior architect gets at rendering, the more rendering work is assigned, until it becomes almost impossible for the junior architect to do real work. The rendering work is unappreciated because the senior architects don't consider it real work, thinking it's something a computer does and not something a skilled junior architect does. The best approach for the junior architect is to pretend not to know how to render. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drew_almighty Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Yes, what AJLynn said. This article is telling Architects and Jr. Architects to leave the rendering to the professionals. I've heard of offices that try and have their Architects do their own rendering, and it just doesn't work. They don't have the time and fall victim to all of the things mentioned in this article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 You're all missing the point. This article isn't for aspiring 3D guys, it's for junior architects (the most underappreciated form of life). Junior architects don't want to get better at rendering. They want to become senior architects. The way to do this is for them to practice working on architecture, but senior architects keep giving the junior architects rendering work (which is not architecture work) to do. The better the junior architect gets at rendering, the more rendering work is assigned, until it becomes almost impossible for the junior architect to do real work. The rendering work is unappreciated because the senior architects don't consider it real work, thinking it's something a computer does and not something a skilled junior architect does. The best approach for the junior architect is to pretend not to know how to render. Quoted for a agreement. I have been all five architectural rendering types: 1: Aspiring Architect that gets given the rendering work 2: dedicated 3d guy in architecture practice 3: artist in 3d studio 4: boss of 3d studio 5: self-employed artist Those are written in my chronological order. Also, they are written in order of most enjoyable (for me). That article is written from the perspective of number 1 also applies to number 2 and it is EXTREMELY close to my experience. However, a good friend of mine gave me some great advice; "If you dont want to keep getting treated like a doormat, stop lying in front of the door." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymutt Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 The rendering work is unappreciated because the senior architects don't consider it real work, thinking it's something a computer does and not something a skilled junior architect does. The best approach for the junior architect is to pretend not to know how to render. Quoted for agreement. It had always seemd to me that the vast majority of architects do not understand that 3D work is a completely seperate discipline (hell, its actually a collection of several disciplines.) "well, gosh, if you know Cad or Revit, then you must be masterful in Max as well" And of course the fallacy of their perception can never be explained to them in any meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk111 Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I read all the responses to the article before reading it and from the general reactions I expected it to be negative toward the illustration field, but I don't think so. I agree with those stating the author is coming from a perspective of an intern architect and not a 3D illustrator/animator. If I were in his shoes training to be an architect, I wouldn't want to get pigeon holed creating 3D illustrations either. If anything I see this as a positive step. Architecture students that have come through their respective programs being exposed to creating 3D models have a greater understanding of their complexity. If anything the author understands the value of these models (time, expertise, etc.) and won't be putting the same unrealistic expectations that he's been exposed to on a future illustrator he may be directing. Also a realization in value translates to more money in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Along the lines of the post above, ..having a junior architect do renderings if often more expensive than having a professional do the renderings. As a professional, you learn what you can and can't do in the 3d world. What effects rendering time, and to what degree. You also learn how to maximize the resources you have available to you to get the job done. These are all things that junior architects who render typically don't do well. Meaning, they spend extra project hours starring at their monitor waiting for something to render, wasting money and time. Two very valuable things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevitGary Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I have often wondered if anyone works like I do. I spear head the design of projects with my boss I do this in 2d and 3d to develop the project. My modeling work is done to give my boss a daily look at his ideas in 3d. I render out 20 images at the end of the day showing all different views of the project and his daily design changes. My renderings are typically with scanline and take 1 1/2 minutes each. My work is also to make accurate 3d models based on detail work buy others so my boss can see if he likes the look of what is being detailed. My 3d work is also me double checking the 2d cad work for consistency. I have fun doing the 3d work and I am one of the most important people in the office in regards to design development. I have no desire to do project management or code research. I will jump in and do cad drawings on projects when necessary and out draft anyone in the office. Why would I refuse to do something I enjoy that makes me an integral part of the design process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryam Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 You're all missing the point. This article isn't for aspiring 3D guys, it's for junior architects (the most underappreciated form of life). Junior architects don't want to get better at rendering. They want to become senior architects. The way to do this is for them to practice working on architecture, but senior architects keep giving the junior architects rendering work (which is not architecture work) to do. The better the junior architect gets at rendering, the more rendering work is assigned, until it becomes almost impossible for the junior architect to do real work. The rendering work is unappreciated because the senior architects don't consider it real work, thinking it's something a computer does and not something a skilled junior architect does. The best approach for the junior architect is to pretend not to know how to render. Junior architects used to do 2d drafts or 3d modelings. They do not have the experience to do final renderings! does he think all architects should be site engineers or to be a project manager?or some of them could be designers? does he expect them to be designers without knowing details? or 3d modeling?or not spending time and not staying over time when they are junior. Usually if they are very good in rendering they would get a chance to work with the top design team in the firm.of course they would get so many rendering jobs,its because they are good at rendering maybe not as good in design?! or not as good in specifications and so on... People get a good position in firms and very quickly,when they are very good in renderings and 3d,they get lots of offers from good practice firms and will work with top people.this makes them feel they could be a starchitect one day,then they realize there is a lot they don't know in architecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) when I started out I used to think and do my job happily the same as you Gary, that was in 2001, I worked for DarGroup, the manager of the arch Department started calling me at 1 after midnight to ask me to come to the office and do some changes because at the other side of the world they are still awake waiting for it. When I stopped answering my phone after midnight he turned meaner and meaner to me. that was one of the dozens of things he made to hurt me and as a junior architect I didn't know how to stop him so I quit. Your situation, Gary, is unique is that you are working with people who appreciate you as a human being and don't ride you for the sake of riding and showing off as a boss. THat is what I love about the US and Canada, is that there are limits and personal life. Edited April 14, 2009 by ihabkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dp Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 thought this would get a few posts when i first saw it for the post above me i don't answer a phone after 22.00 because usually i'm asleep and employer or not i'd never deal with them at that time of day - the big push on the last project is soon the expected anyway i thought i'd mention that the day after my first post in this thread i landed a design job so i've fired up 3dmax for first time in maybe six months in a professional sense got a concept in my head and looking forwards to getting it out (in office hours) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooner04 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I think that knowing how to render has helped me a great deal with my understanding of architecture and buildings in general. Any good architect will tell you that light is an important aspect of architecture, what better way to understand the properties of light and materials than through studying it via virtual simulation. Mies van der rohe, one of the greatest architects of all time coined the phrase "god is in the details". Having an understanding of how to put things together and construct them is extremely important in architecture. Having the ability to craft a detail is something that masterful architects had to learn with each fabrication. It is something that many architects ignore outright because of their lack in skill. To be able to come up with digital fabrications and to see how they look is a very valuable tool. Any idiot can come up with some crappy 'design' and call it architecture. A good architect not only knows how to get a building to stand up but also understands how to make it look good. this is accomplished by understanding many, many things. I think that this person has alot to learn about the things that make up good architecture and how to become a good architect, 3d is one of those aspects in this day and age. Look at the greatest architects and they were all multidisciplined professionals, scientists, engineers, painters, sculptors, furniture designers, botanist, etc. etc. Why is this kid in such a rush to draft out stair details and parking lots anyways? My arch vis experience has been a priceless step in my architectural education/experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryam Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Interesting comment in reply to the author: Oscar Rottink // Apr 29, 2009 at 2:59 pm I just ran across this blog and it’s view. It (and some of the replies) remind me about the fact that Art Directors at our advertising company in the early days refuse to sit behind a computer and use it for their work. 12 years later they understand it can make your work better, and impress a client more then you could ever have done using the markers and a piece of paper. And of course you could explain your idea to a graphic designer and let him do the work behind a computer. But think it’s the same with architects, it will never be perfect at once. And in the end you loose lots of time telling the graphic designer what to do. So modelling may be time consuming, I think knowing it’s possibilities can give your quality of work an extra boost. I wonder how about 10-12 years architects feel about this same topic and if they still think staying with the more traditional way of doing their work will still fit anno 2019. And no, I’m no architect, though I love great buildings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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