Ernest Burden III Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 This list reveals much about the way the architecture field views things--fear and loathing in Lost Wages: >1. You Will Lose Track of Time time management is universal >2. More Demands on Your Time maybe less because you were able to quickly and effectively show your design ideas and get everybody 'on-board', not have to develop two or more schemes concurrently >3. The Employer Doesn’t Have Knowledge of the Software s/he shouldn't have to, do your job and don't expect them to have to know your methods >4. You Will Find Yourself Re-doing Things Over and Over as opposed to architecture...? Rendering is part of the process of design, not the box it is delivered in. Drawing is integral to creating visual works >5. You Have to Sweat the Details Or you have the opportunity to present the big-picture and stop everybody sweating the details prematurely >6. You Are On Your Own: No One Else Can Help You to the contrary--draw it up and watch the suggestions pour in. The yellow trace will come out and pencils will move, probably turning a week of design iterations into a half-hour of brainstorming. Try it, it works! >7. You May Have Knowledge in One Software But Not Another Software is not rendering, understanding design and communication and human perception is rendering...and come to think of it, that describes the practice of architecture pretty well, too. >8. You Lose Your Personal Space No! Anything but lose my space, I'd happily spend years working 75 hours per week doing CAD details for bathrooms for the pay of the people who clean those bathrooms. Anything but lose my personal space because I rendered. >9. You Won’t Be Working on Important Tasks Wow. Communicating a design to those who will help develop it, pay for it and use it is not an important task. That says a lot right there, yes it does. >10. You Will Learn Less You will learn as much, but over a wider range of traditional architectural skills. >11. You Will Be Under-appreciated The biggest problem I have as a renderer when working in a client's office is that everybody comes over to see what I'm doing and wants to talk to me. Then there's the problem of seeing my work framed and hung on the walls, intimidating me with the weight of the under-appreciation I'm getting. >12. Professionals Do It Better Tell that to your wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danteprojetos Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 >12. Professionals Do It Better Tell that to your wife. Hahahaha. Priceless. I agree with all your points Ernest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I suppose a few of these are true, but a few are wrong also. This is written from someone who wants to be an architect, not someone who is an artist. If your goal is become a registered architect, then rendering is a waste of your time. If your goal is to become a skilled artist, then rendering is valuable. True. Need to Read that Article:) Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) I feel that the main difference between the two working environments comes down to the ultimate goal of each. typically, doing 3d in-house you are working more on the development of the design. working for an architectural visualization company you deal with the final finished product. Just my two cents... Agree with my additional two cents. Interesting topics today. Haven't posted so many replies in the last 3 years that I have been a member, as I have today. Anuj Edited May 12, 2009 by rawla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Quoted for agreement. It had always seemd to me that the vast majority of architects do not understand that 3D work is a completely seperate discipline (hell, its actually a collection of several disciplines.) "well, gosh, if you know Cad or Revit, then you must be masterful in Max as well" And of course the fallacy of their perception can never be explained to them in any meaningful way. Also quoted for agreement word for word. Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I read all the responses to the article before reading it and from the general reactions I expected it to be negative toward the illustration field, but I don't think so. I agree with those stating the author is coming from a perspective of an intern architect and not a 3D illustrator/animator. If I were in his shoes training to be an architect, I wouldn't want to get pigeon holed creating 3D illustrations either. If anything I see this as a positive step. Architecture students that have come through their respective programs being exposed to creating 3D models have a greater understanding of their complexity. If anything the author understands the value of these models (time, expertise, etc.) and won't be putting the same unrealistic expectations that he's been exposed to on a future illustrator he may be directing. Also a realization in value translates to more money in my eyes. My god. Such like minded people. Basically we all go through similar experiences. So what if you are based in the US, India or Timbuktoo!!! Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I have often wondered if anyone works like I do. I spear head the design of projects with my boss I do this in 2d and 3d to develop the project. My modeling work is done to give my boss a daily look at his ideas in 3d. I render out 20 images at the end of the day showing all different views of the project and his daily design changes. My renderings are typically with scanline and take 1 1/2 minutes each. My work is also to make accurate 3d models based on detail work buy others so my boss can see if he likes the look of what is being detailed. My 3d work is also me double checking the 2d cad work for consistency. I have fun doing the 3d work and I am one of the most important people in the office in regards to design development. I have no desire to do project management or code research. I will jump in and do cad drawings on projects when necessary and out draft anyone in the office. Why would I refuse to do something I enjoy that makes me an integral part of the design process. I have a friend like that working with RMJM in Dubai. He is also very good at the photorealistic stuff also. An assest to a large architectural firm. They have gone from 300 people to 50 but he still survives. That's how important such people are in a large architectural organization. Plus it also helps that he has an excellent sense of design though he is not an architect. Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salf Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) Not to beat a dead horse again, AJlynn already say it, but.......if you don't agree with what the blogger wrote, you're obviously not an architect, in an architectural office doing renderings. period. Sorry Ernest, nothign against you, your post happens to be in the latest page so I quoted it his list reveals much about the way the architecture field views things--fear and loathing in Lost Wages: >1. You Will Lose Track of Time time management is universal >2. More Demands on Your Time maybe less because you were able to quickly and effectively show your design ideas and get everybody 'on-board', not have to develop two or more schemes concurrently Yeah right, particurarly when a Principal comes at 3pm and tells you, "so and so isn't here" we need this rendering presentation for tomorrow at 12 o'clock. A project you have never heard or worked on, there's no drawings or plans or section or anything, just some bizarre sketch of what the Principal has in his mind, and of course, they don't want a "fuzzy sketchy look" they want is as it was already constructed and a picture was taken. >3. The Employer Doesn’t Have Knowledge of the Software s/he shouldn't have to, do your job and don't expect them to have to know your methods you're missing the point, again...the Principal wants to see an advance to do more changes at 430 pm because he has to leave to a meeting (remember he came to you at 3 pm) He think the computer does all eth work, you just move your mouse around and magically the rendering takes place. >4. You Will Find Yourself Re-doing Things Over and Over as opposed to architecture...? Rendering is part of the process of design, not the box it is delivered in. Drawing is integral to creating visual works yeah you're right there are countless changes in an architectural project, but this takes months, even years, we're talking about a 2 days rendering outta nothing. ]>6. You Are On Your Own: No One Else Can Help You to the contrary--draw it up and watch the suggestions pour in. The yellow trace will come out and pencils will move, probably turning a week of design iterations into a half-hour of brainstorming. Try it, it works!, no dude, you're on your own, that's why you're doing the rendering in the first place and not someone else. Besides, the original article talks about different ways of doing something, If i model in 3d in CAD and render in MAX, maybe a coworker, knows C4d or skecthup only, so he can not help me. >8. You Lose Your Personal Space No! Anything but lose my space, I'd happily spend years working 75 hours per week doing CAD details for bathrooms for the pay of the people who clean those bathrooms. Anything but lose my personal space because I rendered. You're right, and if what keeps me form being being homeless would be to clean bathroom, I'll gladly do it, but that's not the point. It's my understanding you have your own company, right?, well, imagine a client goes to your office and stands behind you all day looking at the screen what you're doing and asking for rendeirng previews every 10 minutes, instead of letting you work in peace, that's what he means with personal space. Will you complain or will you be glad becasue atleast you're not cleaning bathrooms? >9. You Won’t Be Working on Important Tasks Wow. Communicating a design to those who will help develop it, pay for it and use it is not an important task. That says a lot right there, yes it does. Again you're not an architect in an architectural office, right?, it's not that 3d viz isn't important or a valuable knowledge, not at all. It's that you're an architect, and while you're trying to figure out why that frigging glass pane in the 10th floor isn't reflecting anything, the guy sitting next to you is learning how to detail a vapor barrier or a 2 hours fire separation wall assembly, and that's what you want to learn, not how a falloff reflection works. >10. You Will Learn Less You will learn as much, but over a wider range of traditional architectural skills. same as above. >11. You Will Be Under-appreciated The biggest problem I have as a renderer when working in a client's office is that everybody comes over to see what I'm doing and wants to talk to me. Then there's the problem of seeing my work framed and hung on the walls, intimidating me with the weight of the under-appreciation I'm getting. when it's time to promote or give more responsibilities, lets say managing a project, they will look for someone who was involved with that in otehr projects, not someone who only renders. >12. Professionals Do It Better Tell that to your wife. hehehe, but seriously, you can produce renderings better and faster than me, that's your proffession, I bet if someone asks you to fix their car, cut their hair, build their house you won't be able to do it, or you will, but it will take you a lot of time and it wont be as good as if a mechanic, stylist or contractor does it. Edited May 12, 2009 by salf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 it's that you're an architect, and while you're trying to figuring out why that frigging glass pane in the 10th floor isn't refelcting anything, the guy next to you is learning construction and details issues inherent to "your" proffession. No CAD block is going to give you the slightest idea about how a building relates to its surroundings. Which is "your" profession? If you want to know about construction you need to get out of the office. a Principal comes at 3pm and tells you, "so and so isn't here" we need this rendering presentation for tomorrow at 12 o'clock...the Principal wants to see an advance to do more changes at 430 pm because he has to leave to a meeting (remember he came to you at 3 pm) He think the computer does all eth work... Your boss is a ****. Put this another way. What are the few essential skills of an architect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 The personal space thing is pretty funny to me, because it's so true. Not naming names, but I had a boss who was over 80 and would micro-manage me at my desk, looking over my shoulder while I did minute things. I would try to bore him until he left, to no avail. I would suggest that he must have other things he needed to do and I could take care of it, but no luck. Then if any render or test print wasn't perfect it didn't matter that it wasn't finished - I had screwed up. And the other points are true as well, and the experience is not helping one to become an architect. All BS about how it's important to the design process aside - it's not an IDP category, it's not something that makes the other people in the firm respect one's ability to do real architecture work. Rendering is not real architecture work - these are two different fields, which is why renderers can't stamp drawings and architects suck at rendering. If rendering is helping you to understand how buildings are constructed, that is a poor reflection on the state of your understanding of building systems, and your knowledge is not sufficient to become an architect because rendering models do not contain the level of information that you need to know. You need to learn space planning, structures and detailing. You do need to know about codes, even if you disdain them, because somebody got to do it and it's part of your job. Trust me, Ernest, being the junior architect who gets stuck with the rendering is a shit job, unless your career goal is to become an illustrator and not an architect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salf Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 No CAD block is going to give you the slightest idea about how a building relates to its surroundings. Which is "your" profession? If you want to know about construction you need to get out of the office. uh?, didn't follow that, in any case see my revised post regarding that particular point, it's more specific, you'll get it. Your boss is a ****. Put this another way. What are the few essential skills of an architect? lol...not sure, it does looks like that sometimes, but trust me, it's no isolated case, that's what happens everyday in I bet all architectural offices when it comes to rendering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Rendering is not real architecture work OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Well it's true. Sorry for being disagreeable here but architectural rendering and architecture are two separate, but closely linked, fields. It's a sore spot for those of us who have been caught in difficult situations because of it, but it's very important for a junior architect to do real architecture work and not be pigeonholed as the render guy. I don't want to fail to express this emphatically enough for any aspiring junior architects in the audience. Of course, the current state of the economy has everything so screwed up, any aspiring junior architects in the audience should take whatever architecture related job they can get at the moment and worry about doing real work when some comes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevitGary Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 "Rendering is not real architecture work" What if you are rendering a Revit model that will be used for construction documents? If you build the revit model you are rendering that is most certainly real architectural work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Building the Revit model was real architecture work. Rendering it was rendering. Revit does both things but that doesn't make them the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Sorry for being disagreeable here It's me that's being disagreeable. I was working on the point that 'rendering' is a normal, essential and integral part of the process that is design, and that including it at every stage will shorten, focus and enrich the practice of architecture. I had no idea how strongly those of you who work as architects feel the division is, and how devalued you feel when that task is left to you. I'm stunned, in fact. But you know of what you speak more than I do, so I will take this thread as a window into your world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 No, I should apologize, looking at what I wrote it looks like I don't like or properly respect the architectural illustration field, when it's quite the opposite - I enjoy doing it, and respect people such as yourself who are good at it. But it is important for junior architects and their bosses to recognize that it is a separate field from professional architecture and that it is not what junior architects need to be doing, and for the reasons in the original article becoming the render guy can easily become detrimental to their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 it is important for junior architects and their bosses to recognize that it is a separate field from professional architecture and that it is not what junior architects need to be doing Where my points differ from yours (meaning many people who posted here or the original blog) seems to be in whether we see 'rendering' as a separate function to architecture. You clearly do, I do not. But I am including in that term all aspects of drawing that happen along the path from first client contact to ribbon-cutting. "Rendering is not the box that 'architecture' is delivered in". When my father attended architecture school, drawing and rendering were taught as integral parts of the process, and when I have taught 3D drawing it has been to design students. To me there is no separation between design and drawing, especially as the latter is a means to understand and interpret the larger context of architecture well beyond fire-ratings of doors. Perhaps a good analogy is cooking. Most people cook as a regular part of their lives, some are even good at it. But we all recognize that a New York Strip steak is best left to a trained professional to prepare. Why should 'pro' renderers even exist when all architects should be able to draw, present and explain their designs? Then why should there be restaurants when we all need to be able to cook well enough to survive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhiler Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Both Ernest and Andrew bring up some great points from different perspectives. I worked in an architectural firm so I tend to agree with some of the points of the blog and Andy, but I can see where Ernest is coming from. It is hard to say what jr. architects expect when they come into a firm. I've seen people come in fine with drafting or learning codes, others that want to start out doing rendering and work their way into doing more of the design drafting and yet others that thought that design was only about rendering and drafting was below them. I have seen people pigeon holed into rendering because that is what they sold themselves to management as and they eventually decided that they no longer wanted to do it. It is up to the author of that article and others that feel pigeon holed to take it upon themselves to discuss with their bosses their career path and what they want to do. Of course as Andrew stated, right now take what you can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 When my father attended architecture school, drawing and rendering were taught as integral parts of the process, and when I have taught 3D drawing it has been to design students. To me there is no separation between design and drawing It was, is and always will be.What AJ is getting at, is that being the "render guy", when you are an architectural intern can short circuit your career and make the already long road to becoming an architect even longer. This doesn't demean or disregard illustrators. In fact, I think its the opposite. It should be professional illustrators that do this work not those on the road to licensure. For those that don't realize what it takes to become a licensed architect in North America (I'll use Canadian values, because that's what I'm familiar with). Under Grad 4-5 years - if you start at 18 that makes you 22-23 years old upon graduation. (12 hour days, 6 days a week and it will cost you $10k/yr to do it) Grad School 2-3 years - 24-26 years old upon graduation (12 hour days, 6 days a week and it will cost you $15k/yr to do it) Internship 3-6 years - 27-32 years old upon completion (5600 hours of logged and verified experience in 15 distinct categories. Each has a required minimum. Depending on where you work and what you are tasked with, your hours may or may not count towards completion.) Exams 1-5 years - 28-37 years old upon completion (7 exams graded pass/fail with little to no feedback on your results. Oh and each one costs $175 to take.) These are typical numbers showing that becoming a licensed architect takes between 10 and 19 years and why AJ's advice to NOT become the 3D guy during internship is valid. Internship is the one place on this path where you have very little control of your progress. You are counting on your supervisors to allow you to work on tasks that facilitate completion of your IDP/IAP log books so you can advance to the exams. Illustration only counts to at most 20% of those hours. After that its basically time wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 What it takes to become an architectural renderer: "I've got a pencil" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B. Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Rendering for me is fun.... Everything else is work. Do what what you enjoy, life is far too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I find the filp side to be more true for me, I am a renderer, not an architect, so why am I asked (more often than not) to do the architects job? I dont want to be an architect, I never studied architecture. Sure I can make a building or space look good. I can give sugestions to enhance a design, but dont ask me what the GFA is, I dont CARE. Frankly junior architects should consider them selves lucky to be rendering, sure as hell beats detailing toilet cubicals. jhv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Frankly junior architects should consider them selves lucky to be rendering, sure as hell beats detailing toilet cubicals. Its true, not much worse than being the "toilet guy" This is probably why so many interns jump on rendering when asked. You have a big impact really quickly and I think that's Ernest's point. I am a renderer, not an architect, so why am I asked (more often than not) to do the architects job? I dont want to be an architect, I never studied architecture. Sure I can make a building or space look good. I can give sugestions to enhance a design, but dont ask me what the GFA is, I dont CARE. I think architectural illustrators NEED at least a base level of training in architecture and design. Like it or not, you are a part of the process. Understanding nomenclature, materials, light/shadow, spatial concepts, general architectural dimensions, and of course composition are required to facilitate the discourse during the design process. I'm not sure how you do that without a certain level of training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Johnson Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Its true, not much worse than being the "toilet guy" This is probably why so many interns jump on rendering when asked. You have a big impact really quickly and I think that's Ernest's point. I think architectural illustrators NEED at least a base level of training in architecture and design. Like it or not, you are a part of the process. Understanding nomenclature, materials, light/shadow, spatial concepts, general architectural dimensions, and of course composition are required to facilitate the discourse during the design process. I'm not sure how you do that without a certain level of training. I have to agree on that point and expand on it. I come from more than 40 years of experience of building contracting (California Licensed General), carpentry, and architectural woodworking. A business I still run along with the arch viz. My business in viz runs mainly with older, experienced, established architects who often solicit my take on their designs as I do the visualizations. (Forget the young hotshot architects - they just know they are smarter than anyone else! - chuckle) It comes down to a collaborative effort. (any say BIM?) But the point is the more you know the more useful you are. And that is why you get hired. My view on it. Virgil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now