Max 6 - Scanline, finalRender, or Mental Ray?

[Ken Walton]

Hello everyone -

 

I've been using 3dsmax and finalRender for architectural visualization for about a year now. I just upgraded to Max 6 and now I'm a bit confused. The results I was getting with finalRender stage-1's GI were phenomenal, and the scenes seemed to be effortless to set up - throw in a few spots and sunlight and viola! Perfect renderings... Given that all of my work was interior renderings, everything was peachy. Now that I might be embarking on some exterior projects and am faced with a plethora of rendering options, I'm kind of confused. Which is the best method for exterior daylight still renderings? I've tried using all of them on some of my interior scenes and can't get any of them to come out like they should. Between the exposure controls and the Architectural materials, I'm pulling my hair out with radiosity - everything is way too saturated or not bright enough. Going through the Mental Ray tutorials and using the scenes they provide, my results still don't come out the same as theirs. If anyone out there's run into some of these same problems and knows the best method of approach, please let me know.

 

Thanks,

Ken Walton

[Notorious]

Hi, I had the same dilema.

Was using max4.2 with final render-0 and enjoying the ease of use. Now i upgraded to max6 and tryed mental ray (thought i might be able to get away with it instead of FR)

My tutorials didn't look the same either.

Anyway brought FR stage-1 which seems good but not as easy as stage-0......basicly tou have to start again, my workflow has gone through the floor! being able to render stills on the network is a major bonus of Stage-1 though. A lot of people seem to like V-Ray and i nearly went with that instead, it's a hard desision to make!...indeedy

[Fernando Lino]

I have used fR-0 and today I am using fR-1 and for me it is easier and much faster than the previous stage.

I don't know too much about MR but I heard that it is slow!...there are very good options now(fR,Vray and Brazil) for me fR is the best because I am a user :ebiggrin: !!

[mbr]

Good to hear. Now I guess I can wait to upgrade to Max 6! I am beginning to feel more comfortable with Stage 1, and I will say that it doesn't take long to set up an interior scene (that's all interior, start introducing sky domes and it will be a night mare!).

 

Looks like I'll be sticking with fR Stage 1.

 

Oh, just so you fR people know, I just spoke with a rep at Turbo Squid and they should be coming out wiht a new update just after New Years, and should have materials (Yeppie!!) and more videos. That will be great.

[Christopher Nichols]

Just one thing to keep in mind guys. As most of you know, I am a big Vray user, and have enjoyed it for a long time. Most of my reservation with respect to fR are political. But I will not be talking about either of those.

 

MR is not slow. It is in fact one of the fastest raytracers in the world. The problem is that it is super powerful and is a powerhouse rendering engines that people want to learn and use with only a 5 min tutorial. That is impossible. MR true power only starts to reveal itself after several months or years of use, intense programing skills, etc... its complexity is intimidating to even the strongest renderman shader writers. So frustrating that many lighters that worked on "Reloaded" and "Revolutions" would rather never see it again... Its quality and speed are one of the best in the business, but using it, and using it well, is actually fairly hard.

 

Other rendering engines, such as fR, Vray, Brazil, etc... offer the power of modern raytracing, at a level of understanding that even architects can understand.

 

I urge you not to dismiss MR as slow. If you still think so think about the millions of centinals in "Revolutions," or the 100 agent smiths in "Reloaded" and tell me if you still think it is slow. I suggest that you either learn it well, or hope that someone can create a MR connection that is simple enough for most architects to use. Or, if you can't wait... use fR, or one of the others.

[Ken Walton]

Hi everyone, and thanks for the replies...

 

First - IMO I think fR stage-1 is a very significant improvement from stage-0. I personally find it easier and quicker than stage 0, and it alone has sped up my workflow.

 

As for upgrading to max 6 - I'd lean towards yes rather than no for a couple of reasons. I didn't upgrade from 4 to 5 because I didn't see that many reasons to (for arch. viz anyway). When 6 came out, the new combined new features looked promising (as I'm sure they are - I just haven't harnessed them yet). But after paying $1300 for the two-version upgrade, I think I'm gonna try to stay current from now on. But if you do upgrade, I think it would be beneficial to find the rendering method you want to use and stick to it. The architectural materials and UI setup is great, but mixing these with finalRender has given me more problems than results IME. But if you don't have (and don't want to purchase) an aftermarket renderer, the options that ship with max 6 seem to be able to produce some truly amazing results.

 

As for mental Ray, I would never call that package slow. It's been the reigning champ of the cinematic CG world for quite some time. And now that it ships with three (max, maya, xsi) of the leading animation platforms out there should say a lot. I think Christopher is dead-on though - mental Ray's power isn't going to show up after a couple of tutorials - but having it in your toolbox is pretty cool.

[Fernando Lino]

Christopher maybe you are right..but the resources of these companies(LM,Pixar,etc) are much,much,much powerfull than your resources...for them it doesn't matter if MR is slow or not because they have renderfarms (250 CPUs) and very expensive workstations with 16GB ram, 512Mb video, etc...I am talking about a modest user with maybe 4 workstations or less than that.

[Christopher Nichols]

Originally posted by Fernando Lino:

Christopher maybe you are right..but the resources of these companies(LM,Pixar,etc) are much,much,much powerfull than your resources...for them it doesn't matter if MR is slow or not because they have renderfarms (250 CPUs) and very expensive workstations with 16GB ram, 512Mb video, etc...I am talking about a modest user with maybe 4 workstations or less than that.

Well my resources are actually pretty high working over at Digital Domain. But I would argue that you are wrong that you NEED those resourses to harnest the power of MR. Here at work we suffer from the same limitations that you do at your work. We do not have 16gigs of ram since no 32bit operating system can support it. We too are limited to 2gig of ram, a wall we hit every day. I don't know of any graphics card that has 512 megs of ram, with the possible exception a wildcat card. Our graphics cards are probably the same as your. It is pointless when it comes to rendering as graphics cards don't have any effect on rendering (for now). It is true that we are over 1000 procs, but that is not the issue. Rendertimes are rendertimes, and while Pixar seems to be able to live with 24 to 48 hours per frame rendering times, most places try to top out at 1 hour for a 2k frame, which should be around 20 mins for a vid res.

 

I truely believe that the ONLY thing that an architectural visualisation person is lacking in taking advantage of MR is a strong knowledge of the package. And learning it, which takes a long time, is going to be your most expensive cost of using it.

[mbr]

Just a follow up for the previous fR info:

 

I just got an email from Beau at Turbo Squid and he's assured me that they will have a material package available, as well as more tutorials, very soon. They are also going to work on the MTD displaced so that it can compete with Vray and MR's grass capabilities.

 

Christopher - thanks for the info. That's what I figured about MR, but I had been hoping that you could get decent results with it quickly. Probably spoiled with fR!

I understand the politics and almost chose Vray over it. But with the recent conversations I have been having with TS reps, it seems they are taking strides to remedy the problem (at least TS is, which would seem better than Cebas as they have not been the most helpful in the past).